We have a 3-4 yr old great dane mix female (135 lbs, spayed, “Lucy&rdquo who we got from county animal control when she was about 8 months old. I am posting here because even though she isn’t a GSD, she is a large protective breed, with a lot of the same traits. When we adopted her, she was starved, neglected (horrible demodex mange that had left her almost completely bald), and completely untrained (jumping, pulling on leash, mouthing). Her health problems were easily treatable, and we enrolled her in training and spend a lot of time working on the behavior issues. She no longer jumps up, mouths, or anything like that. She is smart, appropriately protective but has never seemed aggressive, and fairly well trained on leash and around the house, although not completely reliable off leash. We *never* have our dogs off leash outside of our yard, so we were comfortable with that level of training.

We also have an older male Irish Wolfhound, who she gets along great with. Although he is not a very dominant dog (I always assumed that at some point in time she would end up dominant because he has such a laid back personality) he has always been the boss.

Our problem is that now we have a toddler. Lucy is very obviously uncomfortable around our 16 month old son. She was actually fine with him as a baby - very curious, etc. But now that he's mobile, she is jumpy in a way that really concerns me. I have *always* supervised interaction between them 100%, and he has never been allowed to be rough with the dogs, but he's a toddler, so he is noisy and little and moves unpredictably. As a side note, the wolfhound behaves in a very relaxed manner around the baby, although he basically ignores him most of the time. I've never had any reason to be worried about his safety with the wolfhound (other than being stepped on - the wolfhound is an incredible klutz).

I noticed a few months ago (now that he is walking) that when he would pet her, she would jump around really quickly to face him. It made me nervous, and so I started keeping them separate more, supervising interactions more carefully, and hoping that she would grow accustomed to his new mobility. She is crate trained. At our old house, the dogs stayed in the laundry room when I couldn’t supervise, which the baby did not have access to, and at the new house they are in an x-pen in a separate room (which is now baby gated out to keep the baby from even approaching their kennel if I am not there).

Just this week (we have just moved, which has been stressful for all of us) he followed me into the room with their kennel once, with a measuring tape that he was flipping around. She was lying down, but not asleep - I had entered the room first and was talking to the dogs. She jumped up and towards the bars of the x-pen where he was standing. Then, just yesterday, the baby gate got left open accidentally, and he went into the room with their x-pen without me. I followed him seconds later, but he was already up near the pen, holding a toy and shaking it around to show the dogs. As I reached to take his hand and move him away, she barked pretty aggressively at him and jumped towards him (mouth closed except for the bark).

There have been no bites, nips, snaps or otherwise. But her behavior says to me (I'm no expert, but I've got a little common sense, I hope) that she cannot be trusted around the baby AT ALL right now. I recognize that training is probably playing a part in this. We trained her to the point that we were comfortable living with her and that we (as big adults whose leadership was unquestioned) would be obeyed. We obviously should have done more.

My questions:
1) With proper training at this point, will she likely ever be to a point where she would be trustworthy off leash in a room with children (with supervision, of course)? We plan to have at least one more child, and obviously already have one, and if they will *always* have to be kept separate, I am not sure that this would be the best home for her (if nothing else, the possibility of accidental encounters like yesterday is scary with children living in the house). We will *absolutely* put the time, effort and money into training her if it is likely to make her safe around the baby.

2) If training is an option, would you recommend working with the Leerburg training materials at home, or should we find a trainer in the area who specializes in dominance issues? How would I go about finding a good local trainer? I have checked out several web sites, and seeing promises that *any* dog can be made 100% trustworthy with children (and photos of huge dogs in dominant postures over young children) frankly worries me. The only other options that I see locally are petsmart training and community center training group classes.

2) Would it be appropriate, if training is not likely to resolve the problem, to try to place her in a home without small children through a breed rescue organization? Breed rescue has said that they will assist in placing her, but I don't want to pass off a ticking time bomb (if that's what she is).

3) Are we being as clueless and ignoring the obvious? If we need to be whacked upside the head with a 2x4 for putting our child at risk by trying to work with a poorly tempered dog, please do it! I don't believe it's a temperament problem, I think it's more likely a training and dominance issue, but neither did most of the people whose emails were on the Leerburg dogs/children page with dogs who had bit children 4 and 5 times already.

I am trusting that you folks won't pull any punches - I want to make a good, safe, responsible decision. We love Lucy, we love our baby, and we really want to do what is right by them both.

Andrea:

I'll try to make the response fairly short. As a new poster and such a long message some people might not even read it.

1. Do you practice good groundwork and pack leadership with Lucy?
2. Have you taught your baby how to touch the dogs nicely?
3. What kind of obedience does your dog have at this point? If put in a down, does she stay there even when the baby is coming up to her? Does she know "leave it" ?
4. Do NOT go to some of the big chains for dog training, they really won't help. IMO doing the training yourself only strengthens the bond between you and the dog anyway.
5. Have you read the Leerburg articles on dogs and kids?

I don't think I have enough information to say that you're clueless - but I can say you can't be careful enough with large dogs and babies.

Jen.

http://leerburg.com/dogskidsdirectory.htm

Here is a good place to start.

Thanks for reading it - I know it was a novel, I just didn't know how I could shorten without leaving out important information!

1. Do you practice good groundwork and pack leadership with Lucy?
Yes, we've tried with the info we had, anyway - she sits for everything. The dogs don't go on the couch, in the bedroom, they kennel while we eat, etc. She has never shown any signs of questioning either mine or my husband's leadership, and has always been eager to please in training.

2. Have you taught your baby how to touch the dogs nicely?
The baby is very gentle, and actually rarely touches the dogs (or our cats), other than to push them away if they get too close.

3. What kind of obedience does your dog have at this point? If put in a down, does she stay there even when the baby is coming up to her? Does she know "leave it" ?

Her basic obedience was done at Petsmart (I know...not the best place, but we work with her at home too) She will stay in a down even with distractions (including the baby), but not sure if he actually approached her *now* - the past week has been the worst as far as her behavior towards the baby goes. Leave it has been a challenge, however. She never guards her toys, but she won't always drop them immediately either.

4. Do NOT go to some of the big chains for dog training, they really won't help. IMO doing the training yourself only strengthens the bond between you and the dog anyway.
We wouldn't go back to petsmart. IMHO the class was poorly run, too many dogs, and she would spend basically the ENTIRE class trying to figure out how to get to the treat bag. We had much better luck with the work we do with her ourselves. I was more wondering if we needed private dog traning, really.

5. Have you read the Leerburg articles on dogs and kids?
Yes. And I *do* believe that we need some more training after reading them, so that I could be 100% confident in her down and leave it. I think she probably views herself as dominant over the toddler. My concern is that with her nervousness that if I had my back turned for a second and she wasn't in a down, even if perfectly trained, and approached by a toddler, she might really snap, and not just jump.

In my opinion you sound far from clueless. You sound very intelligent and seem to have more than your share of common sense. That will help immensely in figuring out the best thing to do for your dog and your family.

I cannot give any advice in the training or dominance issues. There are many people on this board who can. I think the only time posts don't get answered is when they are strange, dumb or confusing. Your post was none of these things.

Good luck. You came to the right place. These people can help you sort things out .

andrea,
no doubt there are people out there who will tell you your dog can be made reliable around your toddler.

but in the end, you are the child's mother, and you have to make the decision of whether or not to take the risk with your child.

and the fact is, no matter how well trained, there is always the risk that the training won't be enough, that the dog won't ever be 100 percent trustworthy. even if the dog makes lots of improvement, and there are no bad incidents for even a year, nobody can promise you this is going to be a risk-free situation.

what i'm trying to say is i don't think this is a training issue, but a parenting issue. you know what a trustworthy dog looks like--your irish wolfhound. and you know that your dane is not like that.

if it were me, from a parenting point of view--not a training point of view--i'd rehome the dog to a home without children.

i'm not a trainer, and i'm not giving a trainer's opinion. sometimes it's not about training, but about facing the reality of the potential threat to your child.

you said it yourself--your mother's intuition is telling you your child isn't safe with this dog in the house. listen to your intuition. it knows best.

Andrea, As Judy said you are not clueless and I am glad that you have already taken steps to separate the dane and toddler and IMHO they need to stay that way. I would never trust this dog around my child or any child under any circumstances. It just isn't worth the risk!

While I would never tell you what to do with your dog, I will say that you need to take whatever precautions are neccessay to ensure that there is no way the dog could possibly be around your son accidently. IMO there can be NO mistakes.

After discussing this with my husband & reading all your information, I think that we are going to get a professional behavior evaluation, and most likely work with great dane rescue to rehome Lucy. She certainly deserves better than a kennel or outside all the time, and I don't want to be selfish and say that we love her and want to keep her, even if it isn't what is best.

I think I will offer to keep her here until a home is found to place her in, since we have a reliable way to keep them seperate currently, and that would minimize the stress of a transition to foster care and then another transition to the new home.

You hear so many people saying "Well, we had a baby and couldn't handle the dog anymore", and I really don't want to be *that* person. But I also don't want to be the person with a dog who bites their baby, because they ignored the warning signs.

You are a wise one...compassionate too.

Very tough choice, but fair, honest and priority driven. I really appreciate what you said about keeping her (separated) until appropriate housing can be arranged...I agree fostering her out could be a potential detriment to her well being.

I have a boy who will be 3 in March. I plan on getting a pup in April. I just wanted to post and thank you for sharing your story.

Andrea,
I have several GSD and they simply love children. I think some dogs love kids an some don't. I personally think it is breed related also. That is why I love GSD's. They seem to have a built in "kid" safe mode - at least the ones I have owned. My children (all 4 girls) can pull their tails,ears, etc and the dogs just roll over and submit to the "punishment" if you know what I mean. They seem to understand that they are babies. In contrast, the same dog will bite any stranger that tried to pet him or her even if they act nice and loving towards the dog. However, even a strange child can ride him or her like a horse and they are OK with that.
I know that I am not offering any advise, and I think you already know what you are going to do with you dog, but I wanted to give you some examples of how a dog should act towards children.


*** Moderator Note: No breed has a "kid safe" mode; comments refuting this position follow and should be noted. ***