OK, so yesterday an opportunity arose and was thrown at me. Well, one of the research facilities I have worked has a lot of a different type of working dog.

You see, goats, sheep, etc are predominant at the facility. There is literally 100's of acres and what they do is keep Great Pyranees and Anatolian Shepherds to guard the flocks.

Well, making a long story short, they had some older pups which 2 was agreed by the facility I could have one as they are a little overloaded right now. They could use them but aren't hurting by any means of dogs to use.

All of these dogs were born and raised soley around livestock. Very little human contact other than feeding and even then is very limited. So we round up the five pups and close the door to the corral sector. They all start running wildly. I just by seeing this know they are completely WILD. Never been handled or anything. Only time touched was when they got wormed, shots, etc and were set free.

The reason is b/c they want the dogs to not seek human attention but to stay with their own, the herd of livestock and guard against coyotes, wolves, mountain lions, etc.

I got a choice between 2 of them. I go to my truck and grab my welding gloves and my horse lead. I make a noose and obtain one of them after a little bit of work.

well, this dog freaks out. Its about 4.5mo old and has some of the secondary teeth and was biting the hell out of me like it was about to die. I get it calm, pet it with the gloves, load it up in the kennel in the truck and drive on.

I come back to town and take it out and it again goes for my hands in the gloves. Its not anything like my Mals which were already preconditioned to human life from early ages.

Its never had a collar on, seen a leash, my gloves etc. I threw all these on and had it out. After about 8hours, I am able to pet it without it attacking my arms and hands ( gloves aren't used anymore), it'll stay with me as i walk it on the lead, I can walk by in my house without it toally trying to fly away. I even washed him to get that strong livestock smell off of him (didn't work well, its in his pores) wihtout a bite. A few growls here and there during all of this and snaps but nothing all out as I have been slow with him.

OK, now that you know the whole story. haha sorry so long.

I have a few questions.

He "is" technically a working dog and was bred for work and work only. They have high capabilities as a guard and watch dog and so on.

My question is, do you think I'd be able to transform this guy into a shutzhund or personal protection dog?

I mean, if he doesn't that's fine by me. We'll both learn together and he'll still do a decent job just being himself without much protection work. I still have access to Mals/Dutchies but don't want them right now. Just too "time demanding" of a dog for me right now and wouldn't do it justice.

So what do you think? For now its just getting it used to sounds, smells, etc. If he's walking around his tails isn't tucked at all. Just hangs low and normal but is extremely flighty and cautious.

Do you think with proper exposure he'll snap out of it and since he is progressing so quickly now migh tbe in good shape?

Or, he's 4.5mo and alot of those factors that shoudl be implemented during the critical points in time are lost and will most likely be just a special needs pet.


thanks.

 Quote:

Great Pyranees and Anatolian Shepherds

All of these dogs were born and raised soley around livestock. Very little human contact other than feeding and even then is very limited.

Just hangs low and normal but is extremely flighty and cautious.

My question is, do you think I'd be able to transform this guy into a shutzhund or personal protection dog?

You are definitely one of the most cryptic contributors, around here Aaron.

For as long as you've hung around these parts, exposed to the party line regarding the socialization, imprinting, training and husbandry of performance bred dogs, and for as many of these curious relationships you've seemed to have had with these Dutchies, Malinois and Pitbulls...

...I have to ask...

What do YOU think?

 Quote: steven lepic

 Quote:

Great Pyranees and Anatolian Shepherds

All of these dogs were born and raised soley around livestock. Very little human contact other than feeding and even then is very limited.

Just hangs low and normal but is extremely flighty and cautious.

My question is, do you think I'd be able to transform this guy into a shutzhund or personal protection dog?

You are definitely one of the most cryptic contributors, around here Aaron.

For as long as you've hung around these parts, exposed to the party line regarding the socialization, imprinting, training and husbandry of performance bred dogs, and for as many of these curious relationships you've seemed to have had with these Dutchies, Malinois and Pitbulls...

...I have to ask...

What do YOU think?

My first impression would be, no. But it seems to be coming along fairly well. Maybe in a matter of even a month can give it the attention and expopsure it needs to be decent. With that said, maybe not as in tune as a a shtz dog but personal protection perhaps. There might be a glimmer of hope that it might do ok I assume.

I am thinking at this point that once in a human situation it'll progress and adapt fairly quickly as it is still young.

There are threads explaining how to bring out certain drives, etc. So its hard to throw everything out and rule this dog as a failure before it even gets a chance.

But my assumptiuon could be wrong.

You see my perspective? I thought personally, that I might as well go after maybe a german shephred as they aren't ass wild as a mal, etc. But while renting, its considered an "aggresive" breed and will make moving difficult.

That is why I want to give this one a chance. I can move freely without breed specific bans.

I have a freind coming up from Dallas to go to his sisters graduation. He wants it as he has goats, etc. So he could use it but I like this dog and figure I'd give it a chance.

If you say no way in this lifetime the dog would serve my interests then I'll just give it to my friend this coming friday.

Why would you want to go through all of what I assume would be the considerable work of acclimating, socializing, bonding with and training what is essentially a feral dog that isn't really that young in the grand scheme of things, when there are some excellent young pups or older dogs that are available to you that, out of the shoot, have better PPD or Schutzhund potential than the one you have?

If you're already considering a GSD, I'd say give the dog to your friend who will allow the dog to live as that breed is often intended, and how he specifically has already been raised. To do otherwise is risky, time-consuming, highly stressful to the dog and with the odds stacked against him already.

Just my shiny pennies.

Also, have you checked with your landlord? While our insurance has some "aggressive breeds" listed, for us anyway, GSDs aren't one of them. Good theft deterrant.

Although Anatolians are a generally protective and "guarding" breed, they do not make the best pets.
The ones I have seen around here are used specifically for what they were bred for, flock guarding. One time I have seen one as a pet and he looked miserable.
They are best left to people that will leave them outdoors to guard the property perimeter. They are VERY suspicious of strangers and not that great with small children.
A friend of mine has two Anatolians and two Great Pyrenese and these dogs guard her sheep flock that she uses to train her Borders with. The dogs are fed and well cared for, although they are left with the sheep and not treated as pets. This makes them better with their job.
These dogs are meant to be in the country and not cooped up in a small yard, crate nor were they meant to be protection dogs for people.
I would recommend the pup go to a person that will let it be what it is naturally.
If you want a PPD, a feral pup like that is not the answer, IMO, get a GSD, Mal or Dutch that you were thinking about to begin with.

you mean while renting?


I did speak to other states and many say you supply the insurance on the dog with your renters insurance. OKlahoma isn't as up-to-date or as accustomed to people allowing dogs to live indoors. Yes, people do it, but many feel its an animal and just a dog so it lives outside.

I could get a mal, but they are SOOOO amped ALL THE TIME its not something that can be left home while you go to out to the movies or whatever.


BUT, I keep hearing different "facts" form people that don't make sense.

Some say, " Mals will tear up your house if you don't work it for 10hrs a day"

Others " Its all in training. You can leave him there and he'll be fine. Just take it out to work with. "

Then I hear, "Dutches are like a Mal but with different colors"

But at the same breath by a different person its "Oh, Dutches take MUCH longer to devlop mentally. They aren't as responsive and are larger than mals.

So its sort of hard. Not only have people told me this in public but I hear it on the board as well. So all these people who have so many more yrs expereince now are not even on the same drawing board.

I mean, we all can agree an English Mastiff or Bulldog are lethargic, slow, and have some health issues.

So I may go ahead and shoot at a dutchie or get a gsd.

Swaying more toward a gsd maybe. haha.

I think i'll give this guy until the end of the week and let my buddy have at him. Not really sure yet.

I think everyone is right. The pup is adapting but may be more "at home" in a pasture. The facility where I got it has ALOT of land. My buddy has some land and has lost a few goats, and sheep to predators. He bought one that was too human adapted and thus ignored the flock. So he was disappopinted. This pup may be what he needs.

One that doesn't like home life, walking steps and around people. Just out there by itself and with the animals it was bred to be with.

So I may do it a favor and let him have at him. He's neutered as well, so we wouldn't have to worry about extra pups, etc. Just a dog to do its job.

By friday we'll see what happens. Its sawying towards the farm side.

well, at least he'll have a nice conditioning lesson.

 Quote: Aaron Crawford

you mean while renting?

We have two houses that we own on our property; one we live in and one we rent out. Our homeowner's insurance is what we have to cover both properties. Tenants can get renter's insurance as well, if they want, to cover their personal belongings and such.

Whether or not our tenants can have a certain breed of dog is directly related to what our homeowner's policy will allow. Perhaps renter's insurance has other limitations as well, I don't know.

I think you'd want to check into your landlord's insurance policy to find out if certain breeds are allowable. It could vary from landlord to landlord, depending on who they use for insurance, and what that insurance covers.

OK. makes sense.


What sort of pet deposit is the norm for your area?

The most common around here ar e" No pits, rotts, dobies, chows, or shepherds.

That's the big five here. In Austin from what I found out from calling around, Boxers are considered an aggresive breed.

Yea, a boxer. I have never even seen an aggresive boxer.

 Quote: aaron crawford

Yea, a boxer. I have never even seen an aggresive boxer.

You're lucky. I have and he was pretty intense.

We don't require a deposit for dogs at our place since we're lucky enough to currently rent to friends.

What I have heard of are deposits anywhere from between $50-$1000 depending on the age and breed of the dog, with the average being about $500 if the place allows dogs over 50lbs.

Many places won't allow puppies due to their destructive potential, and many places (especially in multi-family units) don't allow "aggressive breeds" because of the liability...especially if there are children living elsewhere on the property. Children add an aspect of unpredictibility to the mix. Also, many places that do allow dogs only allow dogs under 50lbs.

Some landlords don't insure against the so-called aggressive breeds not because the insurance isn't available, but because it increases the premium. You could possibly offer to pay that amount for them.

As a landlord, I take dogs on a case by case basis: I like dogs...a lot...so I try to be as flexible as possible. A good owner with a proven track record of proper dog handling is a great thing.

This is one reason why the Companion Dog title or the like is benificial for your average pet owner who rents...it shows potential landlords that the owner is involved with their dogs, for one thing, and have put some work and time into them.

But if the dog isn't aggressive, if the owner is responsible...it's not a problem for me.

If the dog owner isn't responsible you can have anything from attacks to neglect to dog waste to flea infestations to lack of containment to property damage and so on. Fair considerations, really, considering some of the slimeballs who own dogs.

This is what a landlord would be thinking about, so I would make sure you could demonstrate that you and your dog will not cause problems like that. You could have a good chance of changing the mind of the single dwelling landlord, but if there are multiple families living there, such as in a duplex, condo or apartment, you can pretty much forget about being an exception, no matter how spectacular your dog is.