Me and my fiancee got in to a debate tonight about raw vs. kibble. She says that there is no "scientific" evidence/research that raw is better. She also researched on wikipedia and it did have some harsh things to say about raw feeding. Then she found some other "scientific" researches online which stated no evidence proved raw was better. I have tried to explain my side and the views of others on the board that raw is better. Could somebody please give me some scientific facts or links that raw is better. I need help, want to prove her wrong! She aint buying the opinions of the board neither... I need hard facts.

Chris, If you would've asked me about feeding raw a year ago I probably would've said "why should I?". Now, my dogs are benefiting from it greatly-breath less offensive, coat shinier and healthier, my GSD actually eats with "heart"(something she never did even with the higher end dry food), and thru my observations, they are happier. JMHO

One thing that I think of each time I look at my dogs, my GSD especially, is that how much dogs still resemble wolves(and some dogs were bred with wolves not very long ago, as soon as the turn of the century, alot of sled dogs are more closely related to wolves than people think). A basic scientific fact is that all dogs(tiny to gigantic) were at one time a wolf or some type of wild canine and were bred over many years for size, shape, color, etc. People often forget that small fact. Take a look at dogs teeth, where they meant for eating kibble? No, they were meant for tearing and ripping flesh/muscle and chewing/grinding bones. It didn't take much for me to take this knowledge and reading on this forum and the articles that Ed has written to take the plunge and go completely raw.

Here is a site I found that tells about the history of dog food/raw, the very last sentence is a real kicker- http://qualitydogresources.com/a-short-history-of-dog-food-nutrition-2007-02-05
"Remember when adding extra goodies to your dog's food, that more nutrients are NOT always better and that many nutrients may be toxic in excessive amounts." Oh really, I don't think that anyone's dog needs a flavored sauce on their food, they need better food, ie. raw perhaps?-

The best evidence I have seen is looking at your own dog. Look at those teeth. Super strong jaws. Look at a dogs digestive tract. Look at the poo. It will show you how efficiently raw is digested.

I don't think you'll find anything on paper at this time. I've found a few things before and put them on here for others to look at. After more experienced folk looked at it they pointed out holes in the research. I was trying to find things that said it was better instead of looking at the evidence of my dog.

One of the most popular arguments I've heard against raw is that there is no research that raw is better. I've also never seen any scientific evidence that kibble is better.

Some buy in to it, and some never will. I don't think any owners are wrong about their choices of food. I think that most owners do the best they know how. Some choose to question common practice and look for a better way. If I would have never searched the internet for training help and advice I would have never even thought to try a raw diet. I would have continued the way I was feeding probably forever and for many more dogs. I would have been at the vet every year pumping vaccines into to my dogs. For now, I'll have to settle for my best and hopefully my best will continue to get better.

If someone really believes something, you probably can't convince them otherwise. Will your fiancee be able to convince you that kibble is better? People will come around when they are ready.

Good luck and keep 'em above the belt

That's what I told her... seeing is believing. With my first dogs, I did not know much. I pretty much gave them junk! Since educating myself, I have upgraded to high end kibble with my new pup and noticed a huge difference. I am educating myself to start a raw diet and fully expect to notice even more of a difference. I give him some raw meat already and he scarfs it down. He loves it!

She'll be around it enough with you and your pup to see what its about. That alone might be evidence enough later on. I've got my wife and I's older dog(12) on a better kibble now. You're definately right about the difference.

Your results when you begin the diet will speak volumes. Way more than you could convey with words. And if nobody notices, who cares. You, Thor, me, and everyone else on here will know you're doing the single most important thing you could do for your dog.

I'm not a scientist. I don't have any validated, long term research data to give you. In fact, I only switched over to the RAW diet for my 3 dogs six weeks ago.

I did a lot of reading and researching on the internet and with my vet (who is a big believer in RAW diet). All three dog were fed Nutro Max kibble before the switch.This is what I have noticed so far.

My seven year old, 40 lb. Border Collie had bad staining on his teeth, terrible breath. and was over-weight on kibble. Since RAW diet switch, he's trimmer, teeth have only small discolored patches and "dog breath" is totally gone.

Seven year old Lab/mix has also trimmed down and has no dog breath.

Three year old Malinois has lost some weight and had trouble switching to RAW. She appeared to be confused that it was actually food in her dish. She also had some diarrhea or blood streaked stool. All those issues are gone. She is shedding more than usual, but I'm sorting that issue out.

On kibble, there were HIGH piles of dog stool left in the yard. I thought I was feeding cattle. Since the switch, very small amounts of stool that disappeares in a couple of days. I wonder what all that undigested or absorbed material was that passed through them?

All three dogs have increased energy. They get fed in the morning and you would not believe the excitement they display before feeding time now. It is a little more work for me. It is definitely easier to go to the pet store and grab a big bag of kibble compared to getting cases of chicken necks/backs, ground meat, etc. However, for me and the improvment I've seen in my dogs, I have no qualms about making the switch. I'd gladly recommend anyone else do the same.

I decided to make the switch before the pet food recall came out. Now, I feel better knowing what I'M putting in their dish rather than what is actually in the kibble. BTW, I did use VERVE from Honest Kitchen when I was switching the Malinois's diet. I am very satisfied with their product, and the dog loved it. I just have some for a back-up now. Good luck with your switch!

As far as getting objective data from scientific journals, I'd contact a zoo. See what the curators feed their carnivores, and see what they base their feeding decisions on. At my local zoo, I've at least seen the cats eat raw bony stuff.

Now, if the zoo feeds kibble, or your fiance still buys into the idea that dogs are inherently unique compared to other k9s, I'm fresh out of ideas.

Chris,
My first experience with feeding raw learning about it from my sister who started feeding it to her allergic GSD.

It helped and eventually she started buying Solid Gold brand dog foods along with feeding raw chicken and other products.

I read a book my sister recommended that was written buy a vet who stopped feeding his dogs bagged foods and stopped vaccinating his dogs as well. My copy of his book is pretty old and since reading it seven years ago he has since been on Oprah and now I think he advocates first for feeding raw. In the book I think he cooked chicken and rice for his.

They sell the book here- http://leerburg.com/941.htm

You might both get a lot out of reading this book, and while it many not convince her that raw is best, it may steer her away from thinking bagged dog food is natural for dogs.

My two cents.

http://rawfed.com/myths/premium.htmlarch

This was an article that I found interesting.

Edited by Lisa Simms (06/02/2007 10:28 AM)
Edit reason: added link

 Quote: chris gibbons

Me and my fiancee got in to a debate tonight about raw vs. kibble. She says that there is no "scientific" evidence/research that raw is better. She also researched on wikipedia and it did have some harsh things to say about raw feeding. Then she found some other "scientific" researches online which stated no evidence proved raw was better. I have tried to explain my side and the views of others on the board that raw is better. Could somebody please give me some scientific facts or links that raw is better. I need help, want to prove her wrong! She aint buying the opinions of the board neither... I need hard facts.

I remember thinking I wanted "proof." Someone much wiser than I am pointed out that it makes a lot more sense to demand "proof" that switching dogs from what they have eaten and evolved with for millennia (fresh raw food) to bags of dry cereal might make more sense. THAT proof, I have never seen.

We were discussing a couple of scathing web articles here a few weeks ago. Until it was discovered that the articles were written by vets who are employees of Hills, they were worrying to some new raw feeders. The facts about who paid for the articles to be written and published were hidden. Funny thing......

But to your request: While it's true that there is no financial incentive (like the huge ones that drive the commercial manufacturers) to research and publish the science of fresh raw food, many vets and scientists have done so.

I love the internet for updates and new research, but for the big picture and the details of the research, books are "it."

Here are a few, all available here, written by vets and degreed canine nutritionists (Billinghurst and Lonsdale, of course, are vets):
http://www.leerburg.com/feedingdogs.htm

Give Your Dog A Bone - by Ian Billinghurst

Grow Your Pups With Bones - by Ian Billinghurst

Raw Dog Food - By Carina Beth MacDonald

Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats - by Kymythy R. Schultze

The Barf Diet - by Ian Billinghurst

Natural Health for Dogs and Cats - By Richard H. Pitcairn, D.V.M., PhD, and Susan Hubble Pitcairn

Raw Meaty Bones - By Tom Lonsdale

And there are, of course, many, many others. Google produces pages of them. Here are a few comments by vets and scientists collected at UrbanCarnivore.com:

"There are many reasons why the commercial pet foods have never been close to a dog's natural diet. Those reasons include the fact that they are based on grain, and that they are cooked." -- Dr. Ian Billinghurst, B.V.Sc.(Hons), BSc.Agr., Dip.Ed.

"Healthy cats & dogs can eat just about any meat & survive, if not thrive. Their stomachs contain high concentrations of hydrochloric acid & digestive juices & their digestive tracts host an abundance of beneficial bacteria, making it difficult for harmful bacteria to survive." -- CJ Puotinen, The Encyclopedia of Natural Pet Care

From the British Journal of Small Animal Practice:"A growing number of vets state that processed pet food is the main cause of illness and premature death in the modern dog and cat. In December 1995, the British Journal of Small Animal Practice published a paper contending that processed pet food suppresses the immune system and leads to liver, kidney, heart and other diseases. This research, initially conducted by Dr Tom Lonsdale, was researched further by the Australian Veterinary Association and proven to be correct." -- Canine Health Concern

"The sad truth is that prepared pet foods help provide patients for vets." -- Dr. Ian Billinghurst, DVM

"Survival is insured by commercial food; nothing more; not health, not the robustness for life." -- William Pollak, DVM

"The best diet is a raw food diet" -- Dr. Charles E Loops, DVM

"Meat should be raw. Cooking destroys enzymes & denatures the proteins rendering them less digestible to cats & dogs." -- Christina Chambreau, DVM

"Despite our domestication of the canine and feline and the fact that a Chihuahua may not look much like a wolf, the truth is that we haven't changed their gastrointestinal systems. Cats and dogs are carnivores, designed to eat meat, bones and the intestinal contents of their prey." -- Dr Susan Krakauer DVM

"Dogs should eat raw food - raw meat and bones, vegetables and fruit. If they were meant to eat processed, sterilised food, they would have evolved with tin openers instead of dew claws." -- Nick Thompson BSc.(Hon), BVM&S, VetMFHom, MRCVS.

"Health is an inevitable by-product of natural raw foods for our pets." -- William Pollak, DVM

"Raw chicken does of course carry bacteria, E.g. Ð Salmonella. These are of absolutely no consequence to a healthy dog." -- Dr. Ian Billinghurst, DVM, Give Your Dog A Bone, pg. 135.

"Salmonella has even been found in samples of commercial pet foods & treats. Bacteria is not a problem for a pet with a strong immune system, & a strong immune system is encouraged by eating species-appropriate raw food." -- Kymythy Schultze, CCN, AHINatural Nutrition for Dogs & Cats, The Ultimate Diet, pg. 15.

Dr. Donald Strombeck, Phd, DVM, tells us "if salmonella really is a problem, then we should be just as concerned with processed pet food". He states that"Salmonellae has been found in commercial pet foods, something the public never learns." -- Dr. Donald Strombeck, Phd, DVM



The bottom line is that we all have to do what we think is best, after educating ourselves.

 Quote: Lisa Simms

it may steer her away from thinking bagged dog food is natural for dogs.

That's the part that still has me shaking my head ... that we were convinced (somehow) that bags of dry grains with infinite shelf lives were somehow better for ANY mammal than real, fresh food.

You gotta hand it to Hills and Purina.......