Hey all need some advice,

First I don't compete at Sch or Ob, but am examined on an ob routine. Pass or Fail. We have passed everytime we have done it (3 times), so we have acheived a certain proficiancy but I think we can do better . As a first time dog handler, I have made some mistakes in training and am hoping you can help me fine tune this one.

In the routine we have to have to be able to down our dogs from a sit and then move them back to a sit all from a distance. There is no particular order to the routine, it is called out by the examiner.

My dog downs well/reliably from a sit at a distance. When the dog is down and I ask for a sit again I am getting very inconsistant results and often have to repeat the command, and step forward. I should mention we use hand and voice signals (can use both in the exam, and may be asked to use hand only as well). I am using both a hand and voice signal at the same time for this one right now.

I don't think the dog is disobaying. I think somehow he is confused. I sometimes see him move a tiny bit as if he will sit up, but looks as though he is not quite sure so stays down.

I seem to have no problem with sit/down alternations in the heel position.

I have tried having him in front and doing sit/down/sit exersices. And moving back step by step when we have success. Close to me in high drive, he does very well alternating between the two, not hesitating. As soon as I start increasing the distance, I get the hesitation occasionally again.

Of course on examination our routine is done with many other strange dogs in a line up, and is long, so there is the tendency for my dog to get a little more bored/stressed and revert back to this hesitation, even when he hasn't done it for a while in training. (I don't have any ob clubs or many dogs to train regularaly with)

So my question...finally. How should I proceed to fix and proof this problem? How often should I work it? How might i be confusing him? What should I say or do if he does not sit first with first command?

Looking forward to your imput, thanks!

Jennifer,
You might try making your hand signals bigger so he is not confused by your hand signals. At a distance, they sometimes
need a bigger signal.

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You might try making your hand signals bigger so he is not confused by your hand signals. At a distance, they sometimes
need a bigger signal.

Oh the hand signal is BIG...don't know how to make it bigger, but your reply makes me think of something else.

Is it possible that he does not see well at a distance and that he is so reliant on the hand signals that he is not sure what the word "sit" means alone? Seems far fetched at this stage, but possible. Thinking out loud, sorry.

I would start by retraining at whatever the distance is that he is reliable, and gradually moving farther away. I know you said that you have already tried this, but I still think it's the way to go.

I wouldn't increase the distance by stepping back in the same session though, because you could be adding in a signal (by stepping back) that you didn't intend. I would increase the distance by a small margin at the next training session. But don't rush it, make sure he's very solid before increasing the distance.

 Quote: jennifer coulter

When the dog is down and I ask for a sit again I am getting very inconsistant results and often have to repeat the command, and step forward.

 Quote: jennifer coulter

I have tried having him in front and doing sit/down/sit exersices. And moving back step by step when we have success.

Do you see what I mean about the dog possibly picking up accidental signals on your part? You want to make it as clear and simple as you can for your dog. Perhaps you dog is a bit confused and that step forward and backwards is confusing to the dog.

So, again, I would retrain at a shorter distance. Do this in short but frequent sessions, and when he gets it make sure that you instantly reward with your praise word (although, not necessarily in a hyper-excited way or that may break the sit)so that he has a clear signal of what's right. Make sure you don't increase the distance until he's really solid on it. I also have a "warning sound" that isn't a correction, just a sound (sort of a "Ahhh" sound that's unfortunately hard to reproduce in the written word. ) I find that's helpful for narrowing down the grey area for a dog just learning something.

 Quote: jennifer coulter

Of course on examination our routine is done with many other strange dogs in a line up, and is long, so there is the tendency for my dog to get a little more bored/stressed and revert back to this hesitation, even when he hasn't done it for a while in training. (I don't have any ob clubs or many dogs to train regularaly with)

I think that you may be on the money on this one. A very long wait, with other strange dogs in a relatively unfamiliar place is a HIGH level distraction for a dog. Often times you have to retrain the dog, even in something they have 100% at home, in those situations.

And if you can't hit the clubs, perhaps you can simulate the situation with some friends and other dogs? Or see if you can strike a friendship with the other people taking the examination and see if you can all get together to train and test your dogs before the examination. People might be willing to do this, because even with dogs that already have it down, it's good practice.

Good luck and let us know about his progress!

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I wouldn't increase the distance by stepping back in the same session though, because you could be adding in a signal (by stepping back) that you didn't intend. I would increase the distance by a small margin at the next training session. But don't rush it, make sure he's very solid before increasing the distance.

Thanks Amber. I knew it was going to come down to going back to the begining on this one. I think I am going to use food for this, I usually use a play reward. Maybe it will make it seem different to the dog than what we have been doing already. I have been flirting with food rewards lately and think we are getting the hang of it now.

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Do you see what I mean about the dog possibly picking up accidental signals on your part? You want to make it as clear and simple as you can for your dog. Perhaps you dog is a bit confused and that step forward and backwards is confusing to the dog.

Yes, I often think that I have taught him not to sit up until I say it twice and step forward!! So many rookie mistakes!

Another idea I got from the S. Booth book was about training in a pattern or predictable way when learning. I have switched things up so much and often to avoid anticipation and to be ready for examination, that I have not given this exersise the attention and predictablity it requires in the leaning stages I suppose.

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I also have a "warning sound" that isn't a correction, just a sound (sort of a "Ahhh" sound that's unfortunately hard to reproduce in the written word. ) I find that's helpful for narrowing down the grey area for a dog just learning something.

Yes I think I know that sound So if I ask for the sit and the dog does not, I would give the "ahhh". And then? A little time out? Do I need to release the dog? Repeat the command? I understand I need to try my best avoid the dog not being successful right now and move on from there, but just in case?

I have been giving a "too bad" (my no reward words) and turning my back on him for a few seconds. Then I would try to repeat the command from closer to him.

Also I guess I should cut out this stepping forward with the sit command? I think this is the body cue he has picked up on.

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think that you may be on the money on this one. A very long wait, with other strange dogs in a relatively unfamiliar place is a HIGH level distraction for a dog. Often times you have to retrain the dog, even in something they have 100% at home, in those situations.

He does do very well considering. At our winter exam 10 hrs from our home in a 12 dog line up (all strange to him), we also had to contend with avalanche bombing going on the whole time all around us! Distracting, but manageble for him, some dogs were cowering and pretty unresponsive.

I do get to practice occasionally with the other dogs I work with in the winter (3 others), it is tougher in the summer as everyone is on their own agendas. They are also happy with just passing an ob exam, I want mine to be something that will impress the examiner!! That makes me more motivated for the group ob sessions than they are! We are squeaking a few in! There are other handlers, but they are scattered all over Western Canada, and I don't get to train with them except on courses.

One BIG mistake I made was doing full OB routines with other dogs when my dog was very young with no reward until the end. He is amped and in drive when we work on our own, but knows when we are working with lots of other dogs around that it will be boring and long and there will be no intermittant rewards so it loses a little of the spark and attention. Rookie mistake again, working on changing that by offenring intermittant rewards when working ob with other dogs now.

Back to the drawing board, of course there is no quick fix. Going to have my first new and successful session now.

Thanks Amber

Jennifer, you really sound like you're doing wonderfully with him...I forgot to mention that in the last post.

 Quote: jennifer coulter

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I also have a "warning sound" that isn't a correction, just a sound (sort of a "Ahhh" sound that's unfortunately hard to reproduce in the written word. ) I find that's helpful for narrowing down the grey area for a dog just learning something.

Yes I think I know that sound So if I ask for the sit and the dog does not, I would give the "ahhh". And then?

Well, actually, it depends on if your dog already knows what you're asking or not. If the dog knows the command solid and chooses to ignore me or be stubborn, I give a correction.

I use the "warning sound" when the dog is trying to learn something new. For example, if I was trying to teach the dog a sit and he's just getting the hang of it, I might give the sound if he tried something other than sitting. If he did nothing, I wouldn't make the sound...I would try another way to communicate to the dog what I want from him.

And "warning sound" is kind of a misnomer. It's actually neutral sounding, but the idea is that when a dog's learning and he's TRYING to get it and performing an action in an attempt to comply, he gets a sound out of me.

That sound is either a "nope, that's not it, try something else" sound, or else it's the praise word that gets him a reward. (Or in the case of a dog that decides to act inappropriately, there's the correction, and that too has a sound from me.)

The idea behind it is that if the dog is learning, I don't know...sit, for example, and he instead tries to plop down...but he's clearly trying to get it, he gets the "that's not it sound."

It's been my personal experience that dogs won't often repeat that action because it's already been answered by me as incorrect. If the handler is silent, often times the dog will repeat the incorrect action, hoping that maybe this time it will work.

The other benifit for new trainers with bad timing is that the dog will do something and learn to wait for a sound from the trainer instead of just bopping all over the place trying to figure out what the trainer wants.

I should mention that if you find yourself making that sound too often, it usually means that you need a better way to teach the dog the command. The sound I make is for a dog that's pretty much got it, but is still a little rough around the edges.

Not everyone does this. It's just what I have had a lot of personal success with. It's also a good sound as a correction for very soft or handler-submissive dogs.

I wanted something akin to when you're teaching a child to do something and they try it the wrong way. You certainly don't want to yell at them, but you don't praise them either. You sort of tell them that the way their trying isn't working and guide them to try it a different way, if that makes sense.

You might also want to consider clicker training in this situation. That's a nice and clear signal to the dog as well.

The best thing is to be as consistant as you can and I have a feeling you'll get this in no time. Good luck!

 Quote: Amber Morgan

The other benifit for new trainers with bad timing is...

Didn't mean you, by the way! I was speaking in a general context!

In the past I have mostly used "ahhh" for interupting behavior I didn't like.

When I just went outside and had a little sessoion on just this problem, I did try it. He definatley noticed when I made the sound, but offered no other behaviors.

I do think that this is more of a hesitation than ignoring me. Not really his style to actually disobay. I have found more often than not I have goofed in my training in some way.

In the past I did try a correction (I do not e-collar) so this involved me going back to the dog and giving a leash pop to a sit. (then good sit). So now if he hasn't sat on command and I walk towards him he will pop into a sit at the last second as if "oohh you want me to sit..no need to correct".

When we worked with the food reward today, we had some success. I found our threashold distance and then I moved a bit closer. I marked the sit with "good" (our marker) and then would walk back to him and reward. Then down him and walk away and repeat. Sound good?

As often happens when correcting one problem it leads to another. Because of the food rewards and me bing very close to him, he started jumping forward/creeping on his sits. I think we stopped it. I hope so

I thought about using a clicker! Since half of the ob we do involves me having mitts on in the winter, I haven't used the clicker at all really. Same reason I have used play rewards over food once a behavior is learned. I agree it might be something different that might get him thinking. I would have to start him at the begining for clicker training. I also though that perhaps my voice marker would be easier to hear at a distance than the clicker but I could be wrong. I know he knows that the marker does not mean release, I wonder if this would take a while for this point to get accross being new to clicker training?

mmmm so much to think about. Seems embarassing to have a problem with a sit command, the first thing he ever learned! Ah dog training...frustrating...but never boring! Like a puzzel that needs to be solved. Thanks for letting me vent and think out loud.

Just out of curiosity, does he reliably perform at a close distance? I ask because with some dogs, a sit from a stand is a totally seperate action from a sit from a down, strange as that may seem. Some dogs get it right away but others need a refresher in the sit when you mix things up a bit. Doing it at a distance is even more to ask. I know he does it sometimes, but I can't really get if he's dead on if you're right in front of him.

At any rate, I'm not surprised the sound didn't work for you...you said that you have already used the sound as a interruption for incorrect behavior, right? Best not to make him learn even more things just yet!

I'm sticking with my original advice I would be careful about increasing the distance too quickly. In fact, it might not be a bad idea to start over completely with very clear signals and responses. Maybe, this time, start over with a clicker. I didn't catch what your distance was, but a good clicker's sound travels pretty clearly, IME.

The other suggestion is (if you start over) perhaps label the sit from down command differently (with different hand signal and a different verbal command) than the sit from a stand. Could be that's what's confusing him.

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Just out of curiosity, does he reliably perform at a close distance? I ask because with some dogs, a sit from a stand is a totally seperate action from a sit from a down, strange as that may seem.

THANK YOU! This is the "ah ha" moment I was looking for!!!

I re-evaluated the close up question, and it is not a 100%. Even when he does right, I can see hesitation.

After I posted last, he did start to offer the sit after the "ahh" noise. It did not help the overall success of sits on the first try. I think the "ahhh" was just telling him to sit, like my step forward was before.

I can't beleive it but I do beleive you are right that he understood sit from stand from 6 weeks old, but from a down he does not reliably. Maybe that is what he has been thnking so hard about when hesitating "mmm doesn't my mom know that 'sit' means stand and sit, not sure what I should do because I am in a down right now?"

I am now convinced I need to go back even further than I thought. Blew the dust off the clicker and will train the down to sit using the clicker and "assi" command.

More questions if I might. I will have to think about what hand signal to use. I am using some old school hand signals now, inclusing the right angled arm for sit and sweeping hand down for down. Maybe arm straight up for sit. Seems weird as many use that for down. I could use arm straight out to the side, but do use stuff like that for directions when searching so might get confusing.
Also tried my first clicker session with really good treats and had really good results. I have limited clicker knowledge and probably have to do some research although I do marker train.

I started just clicking and treating. Moved to some attention clicker exersises, and then did some downs and sits (with new command) bang on. Should I use my same marker word as always at the same time I click?

Maybe this needs to move to the using clickers to solve problems section now?