I've been rereading the forums and articles here (and watching all of my dvd's) in preparation for my new working gsd pup and I came across a few instances of the term civil and civil drive. I think in the past I skimmed over the term and assumed it meant that a dog (esp. police k9) could go from working the streets to nice at home (like around kids, etc.) but now I am realizing the term is often used with reference to aggression in public situations. I guess my question is what is the difference between defense and civil drives if any? Is civil drive something that is inherent to a dog whereas defense can be trained?

edited to add*

I realize that this has a lot to do with SchH and will be picking up all the books and videos I can on the subject as well as visiting every club in my area since I do want to train my pup in this, was more surprised i missed such a big term somehow but as my last dog wasn't cut out nerve wise for SchH I didn't do my reading as well as I should have.

Just curious and feeling a bit daft for missing a pretty big definition.

~Magdalena

I keep to a real simple definition which has done me well. Civil drive or a dog being civil is simply the ability to focus on the man and not the equipment.

Some sport dogs will only bite if the man is wearing a sleeve or has other sport equipment. A civil dog doesn't care. Personal protection or police dogs have to be civil for obvious reasons, sport dogs don't.

I have 2 dogs that are civil. It keeps life interesting to say the least.

Ah that is a good definition thank you! When I was looking for a pup I put in my ad that I was looking for a dog that was (among other things) civil so was wondering what I was getting into.



Anyways it looks like civil is often balanced but I will duly prepare for an interesting life!

What Betty said is a great definition, but to I'll go a step further and say, the display of aggression towards an un-equipped person/helper/decoy triggered by their defense or fight drives.

~CHRIS DUHON

 Quote: Chris Duhon

I'll go a step further and say, the display of aggression towards an un-equipped person/helper/decoy triggered by their defense or fight drives.

I think the part about being worked in defense or fight is so key…. If the dog is being worked in prey it’s NOT a civil exercise. I’ve seen way too many people talk about working their dog in civil only to watch a prey oriented exercise where there is absolutely no pressure being put on the dog.

Exactly, how about people that back tie a dog, wear a sleeve and pop a whip. Just because they are crouched low, eyeing the dog hard, and making faces and looking threatning, they think they are working the dog in civil, nonsense. Unless that dog has never seen a whip or a sleeve they're putting the dog in prey.

~CHRIS DUHON

Whaaaat?

(Sorry, I just don't get it yet...keep explaining)

Thanks again for all the clarifications, I did at least understand the difference between training in prey and then in defense later but was just confused about what part civil played in it. Will still be a long while before my pup-to-be will be going into defense training anyway (he's only 14 weeks now). Gives me time to buy one of every dvd here heh (watching the working puppy dvd as I type this).

~Magdalena

Hi Charles,

Chris' additional comment may, on its face, sound like a dog is being put into defense or fight by the decoy's actions he described. Not true. The mere fact that a sleeve is present, as well as the movement required to pop the whip, actually puts an already bite trained dog into prey. You have to look at what the dog is doing, not the decoy. As soon as that sleeve comes out you can bet the dog is going into prey almost every time.
Don't know if that clears it up any better. Chris is an excellent decoy with an ASR 3 certification. I'm sure he can explain it a little better than I.

Howard

Thanks for the compliment Howard.
If the dog is being worked by a person with any type of equipment on he is NOT being worked in civil, period.

It is possible to work the dogs defensive drives with equipment on however. What I like to do is shift the dogs gears back and fourth from prey to defense. I as the helper control this, the dog merely reacts to me and he reacts in prey or defense.
I start off by moving with the sleeve in sight and I may pop the whip, this puts the dog in prey http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v679/cjduhon/?action=view&current=IMG_0050-1.jpg
Then I stop and square up with the dog angling my body so that the dog sees he has to deal with the man to get to the sleeve, sorta like the man is protecting the sleeve, there is no whip popping at this time, but the whip is held in a stick like position in a threatning manner, eyeing the dog hard, and pausing with no moment http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v679/cjduhon/?action=view&current=IMG_0049.jpg
Once the dog gives good forward aggression and deep barks, he has flushed his prey and stopped his prey from stopping to defend himself and now has the prey on the move again http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v679/cjduhon/?action=view&current=IMG_0046-1.jpg
Then give the dog some missed bites on purpose, this builds frustration for it's bite and increases tenacity and explosiveness http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v679/cjduhon/?action=view&current=IMG_0054.jpg
Then when I give the bite I look away from him, and move away giving him his moment of glory and enjoying his dominance over his prey with the occassional stop, square up, raise stick very quickly then back to looking away, and moving away. This simulates prey in the wild. Prey in the wild, move and attract the preditor, they may stop briefly and attempt to fight off it's preditor that makes the dog have to fight or continue through a real threat, once they catch their prey, if it doesn't die instantly it may give them one last fight here and there as it dies, that would be the occassional stop and square up eye the dog raise the stick, but then go back to looking away and moving away from the dog while he holds his bite and work it.
The dog maybe tapped with the popping end of the whip, but mind you this isn't a slave days lashing with the whip, it is a controlled very quick pop on the front shoulders, and doesn't take much force. This lets the dog know that the helper/decoy means him harm and the engagement is serious. With the sleeve behind the helper, he clearly sees he has a fight with the helper putting him in defense. It should be noted that whip work is one of those things that should be done by those who truely know what they are doing, for reasons of not wanting to ruin a dog, making a dog stick shy, or actually hurting the dog. Actual contact with the whip does not need to happen often to get the point across. It should also be just forceful enough that the dog is not in pain, but understands it's unpleasant sensation. Again this is NOT whipping the dog kunta kintay style.

I prefer to shift the dog back and fourth from defense to prey because defense is stressful on the dog, and prey relieves the stress, it's a comfortable drive for the dog. This keeps the dog balanced IMO and keeps the work enjoyable and not just consistantly stressful.

Hope that explained a little
~CHRIS DUHON