Hi peeps, long time no talk! Had an insane summer that kept me from working much with Levi so you all got a bit of a break, ha!ha! Now we are back to work and I have some things I'd like to discuss w/the forum. I have retained a trainer to work with us for protection training. While evaluating Levi for the work the trainer and I noticed a limp in Levi's gait. I hadn't noticed it for a long while, if you rememeber we had discussed this about 4-5 months ago when I first noticed a slight limp in his run. I did take him to the vet but upon exam he felt that it qualified as growing pains (aka pano?). The trainer and my breeder who is also a commercial raw feeder agreed with each other that the high protein diet was probably the cause. Take into consideration that I only feed raw in the evenings, morn I feed a high qual dry dog food. Would the forum agree with them? I have been advised to significantly drop the amount of protein that I am feeding him. The trainer thought he was very large for his age and that being so this would account for the leg issue. HOw do we know it isn't elbow displasia or something? Can you tell? How tall/weigh should a 9 month old male shepherd be?

Second ??...Still no second testicle. Just one very large one. My son has dubbed Levi Gi-norm-a-nut, ha!ha!ha! This being said, to do protection work involves testosterone. To get him neutered might not help in this endeavor. Will a vet remove only the receded testi??? Can a dog still work well with only one test and one removed? Should I attempt to go back to the breeder for another pup? What is usually the policy on this kind of issue? If so, what would life be like around here with another pup considering Levi is only 9 months old? I just don't know what to do about this, any advice would be welcome.

by the way...I did mark this last picture for forum size on photobucket and it still came out humongous

wow, no one is answering me...whah!!!!!

I would suggest that you separate two sets of questions like that into two posts.

There are approximately eight questions in the post, and at least two topics. I suspect that forum members might get tired just thinking about it. (Or maybe it was just me. I'm old.)

This question: How tall/weigh should a 9 month old male shepherd be?

is not something that can be answered as is, on a web forum. Bone structure, size of parents ... these are some of the factors. Is your dog chubby? Do you look down from above him and see his "waist" curve in? Does the vet think he is overweight? If you look at him from the side, at ground level, do you see a tuck-up behind the rib cage?

"High quality dry dog food" is pretty meaningless. What dog food, exactly?

"Feeding raw in the mornings and kibble in the evening" is similarly meaningless. How much raw (in terms of percentage of his weight)?

Curious -- why raw and kibble? Has he always been fed both?

How did the vet diagnose pano? X-rays? Or what? http://www.gsdhelpline.com/pano.htm

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&articleid=897 discusses cryptorchidism and neutering. What did the vet recommend?

Wow! Talk about overwhelming!! As Erkle would say "Did I do that?" LOL

Ok..first question Levi is a bone if you ask me but the doc thinks he's perfect. He loves his weight and says that hip problems will be less because of it.

As far as dog food goes...he's been on several as I have tried to educate myself on nutrition. No Science Diet stuff. Mostly holistic dogfoods formulated for large puppies. Right now I am waiting on my local feed store to get Canadaie in and will be switching him to that soon.

I am extremely busy and have no time in the a.m to feed my dogs raw food properly, therefore, I opt to give a high quality dry in a the a.m. and raw at night when I am more capable of feeding them. I am a fan of raw but I must say that the trainer has told me that he knows lots of people who have fed raw and has seen many instances of sever worm infestations because of it. It kind of made me nervous, to tell you the truth. I'm wondering once again if chosing raw was the right thing to do.

I feed probably 1-2 lbs in the eveing of raw chicken, beef, beef hearts or whatever I find (i never feed pork) I used to give them veggies with it but he would never eat them so I just stopped trying.

The vet never said "Pano" to me. He just said that since he could feel no injuries, abnormalities or broken bones that he suspected it was "growing pains". If it continued that we would probably have to xray but I have not done that yet. There is no doubt it is the same leg as before. None of the other legs seem to be effected. The trainer has 4 dogs, two gsds and two malinois that he used on the police force. I'm guessing he knows if a gsd is big for his age or not, I wouldn't know one way or the other so I just took his word for it. He actually did suggest it as Pano by watching him and listening to what happened with the vet.

The vet wants to neuter him at around no later than two years time. I did not ask him if he would take only the receded testi, it never occured to me until recently.

Whew!

 Quote: RobbinMann

I am a fan of raw but I must say that the trainer has told me that he knows lots of people who have fed raw and has seen many instances of sever worm infestations because of it. It kind of made me nervous, to tell you the truth. I'm wondering once again if chosing raw was the right thing to do.

Sorry but your trainer is GROSSLY misinformed about nutrition. I would wager that I have a LOT more experience with raw feeding than he will ever have.

I would disregard any info this person gives on nutrition in the future.

 Quote: robbinmann

I am extremely busy and have no time in the a.m to feed my dogs raw food properly, therefore, I opt to give a high quality dry in a the a.m. and raw at night when I am more capable of feeding them. I am a fan of raw but I must say that the trainer has told me that he knows lots of people who have fed raw and has seen many instances of sever worm infestations because of it. It kind of made me nervous, to tell you the truth. I'm wondering once again if chosing raw was the right thing to do.

Is there anyway you can get their meals ready at night for morning feeding. I put mine in Ziplock bags and all it takes in the am is an "unzip, dump and feed" motion. I am busy all of the time to, and it took a while, but I have a system now and it really helps with my schedule.

Also, I am with Cindy, I would research a little more on this site about raw and do not listen to the "trainer".
I get people ALL the time talking about raw diet and I am amazed that they think it is "throw a chicken in the yard and your done".
I ignore people that bash raw, especially when they say "Oh, your dogs look great, what do you feed?" and then you tell them and it turns into "Oh, you shouldn't do that, it's a terrible way to feed dogs."
I just laugh and ask them if they were lying when they said that my dogs looked great and it usually stumps them and they leave.

 Quote: cindy easton rhodes

 Quote: robbinmann

I am a fan of raw but I must say that the trainer has told me that he knows lots of people who have fed raw and has seen many instances of sever worm infestations because of it. It kind of made me nervous, to tell you the truth. I'm wondering once again if chosing raw was the right thing to do.

Sorry but your trainer is GROSSLY misinformed about nutrition. I would wager that I have a LOT more experience with raw feeding than he will ever have.

I would disregard any info this person gives on nutrition in the future.

DITTO! I would bet that if you skipped the kibble altogether, the Pano would disappear. The "high protein" thing has almost totally been disproven. High protein from NATURAL, FRESH sources is not going to cause any problems, not worms, and not Pano.

Pano is a much-debated problem, as it's unclear what actually causes it, but it is thought to have a hereditary component. My boy had it for forever, and I tried all sorts of things to see what would work (food, exercise/rest, etc.) and nothing changed it. In the end, I let him do whatever he wanted, fed him raw, and it went away with age. It will often shift from leg to leg , both front and back. If it never shifts, you may want to have it looked at closer for injury/dysplasia.

As for neutering, I'd disregard any opinion of any vet who thinks a large breed should EVER be neutered before 2. That whole cryporchidism issue is one that IMO, is blown way out of proportion. Yes, it can cause cancer if the undescended testicle is left in the abdominal cavity...for a long time. I had a dog with this and my vet said that yes, it can become cancerous, but not for years...no reason to rush in neutering him, but he recommended doing it when he's middle-aged. That way, he's young enough to go through the surgery easily and before it has time to cause problems, but old enough to receive all the health benefits of being intact. I will say that it sickened me to see how fast his body condition changed after the surgery (at 6yrs old). He went from a wirey, muscular little dog to a thin, soft, and almost fragile feeling dog in about 6 weeks. Disgusting, and I would NEVER do this to a breed prone to bone/joint problems, since muscle helps so much.
If it doesn't exist, then what's the problem? He shouldn't be bred? Ok, so don't let him knock anyone up. What harm is having one testicle going to do him if left intact?

 Quote: cindy easton rhodes

 Quote: robbinmann

I am a fan of raw but I must say that the trainer has told me that he knows lots of people who have fed raw and has seen many instances of sever worm infestations because of it. It kind of made me nervous, to tell you the truth. I'm wondering once again if chosing raw was the right thing to do.

Sorry but your trainer is GROSSLY misinformed about nutrition. I would wager that I have a LOT more experience with raw feeding than he will ever have.

I would disregard any info this person gives on nutrition in the future.

More politely put than this purveyor of misinformation (the trainer) deserves.

Just so you know what a huge piece of ignornace this is, I'm providing a link to an explanation from a vet med school of how each kind of worm infestation is triggered:
http://www.vet.uga.edu/VPP/animaldoc/worms/worms02.php

We can all clearly see, in this page and in *any* authoritative web page about worms in dogs, that diet has almost zero to do with worms (zero for almost every type, and zero for every common type).

My anger is not directed toward the poster, of course; the trainer who sets him- or herself up to be an authority and then passes off complete BS as "facts" really makes me unhappy.

Robbinnann
I am not an expert on Raw Feeding Of Dogs far from it, But i was a little suprised to see you feed your Dog Kibble in the morning and 1-2lb Raw in the evening and you mention his weight
I know all dogs differ but My G.S Pup Fred is about the same age as yours and when i fed him Raw i fed him the Diet of Cindy Rhodes Chart for a 65 lb Female G.S
Fred Weighed 62lb I gave him the same supplements and feed as on the chart to the letter, the only difference being the Chicken was Legs and wings as i could not get Backs and Necks but everything else was the same, But he only ever had Raw and the total amount of feed never exceeded 2lb in weight for the whole day, fed in two meals some times a bit less, so i was suprised to read you were feeding him that amount and Kibble on top of the Raw amount
Fred has if you have read also has Pano in his near front leg but diagnosed through an X-Ray,
Unfortuantly i have to again revert to Kibble for the time being, But i will keep trying to find a source for Raw and i hope it will not be too long before i can get him back on the Raw Diet
Me i am up at 5.oclock in the mornings but the dogs have there time for a walk, and then Fed it only takes a few minutes to get the raw sorted having taken it from the Freezer over night, it only a matter of putting in the bowl and Adding the supple ments to it in the mornings, but everyone to there own, I tell this to others who are in my other Sport who say they do not have time in the mornings, My reply to them is to get out of bed 30 minutes or more earlier than they do, To me there is no excuse