Hello -- I'm at a bit of a loss. I'm new to this discussion forum but NOT new to the Leerburg site and training techniques. About a month ago my husband and I started back at square one with the "Groundwork" training with our 9 month old white german shepherd Gus. We did social isolation for about a week; then we started to incorporate obedience training back into his schedule, but all other times he was in the crate. After another week we started to incorporate free him in the house (always on the prong collar and a long leash). But there is always a VERY short progression between being playful and just being plain wild. We correct him for the bad behavior (the way Ed tells us to in his "Basic Dog Obedience" DVD and his "Theory of Correctionis" e-book), but he usually doesn't calm down, and so back in the crate he goes. We take him on two walks every day, and incorporate playing fetch in the backyard (on a 30-foot leash) as part of his training so that he gets some running in. I feel as though we've been followng the Leerburg instructions to a tee, but we're still having trouble with his wild indoor behavior. Does anyone have any suggestions? I hate keeping him in his crate so much... I don't want him to get depressed! Will he grow out of this? Thanks in advance for any advice!

A few things pop out at me in your post

1. What's "social isolation"? I don't recall ever hearing Ed use that term before, nor seeing it written on this board. If it means crating a large 9 month old puppy for long periods of time then that may be part of the reason he's acting like such a nut when he's out.

2. "A tired dog is a happy dog". How about more play time, incorporating obedience work with the fun? He gets a physical and mental workout...and gets rid of that excess energy. Make the sessions brief and do several throughout the day. Work on indoor behavior AFTER he's been exercised. He'll be tired and maybe more compliant. You'll be setting him up to succeed...not to fail...in the house.

3. When you say "free" in the house do you mean he's trailing a leash and going where he pleases? If so, it's time to restrict his mobility in the house. Get a short leash and tether him to you. Use baby gates to restrict where he can go in the house until he has EARNED the right to move about freely.

Hope I got this right!

Can you be more specific about his behavior? Like, what prompts it (people getting home, children running around, people standing up, people grabbing their keys...) and can you define "wild" (does he nip, does he jump up, run around in circles, etc.?). Trying to correct for a bunch of behaviors all at once is much more difficult than isolating the behaviors and dealing with them one at a time.

For example, correct him for jumping (AT THE MOMENT HE JUMPS), correct him for nipping (AT THE MOMENT HE NIPS). If you correct him after he's just done all of these things for a few minutes, it won't be clear to him what you are correcting him for.

Without knowing a whole lot about your situation, two things jump out out me:

One, the corrections are likely either not strong enough, done correctly, or your timing's off, or a combination of the three.

Second, it sounds like the dog needs more exercise. I know you're exercising him a lot already, but it's common for people to underestimate the amount of exercise a dog needs.

Another thing you can do, if you're not doing this already, is to incorporate some basic obedience lessons into his daily routine. You can do the basics such as sit and down (if you haven't already, teaching this dog a long down would be a good idea, IMO) and if you have, you can spice it up by teaching him additional commands, even if they're only parlor tricks. This will exercise his brain AND give him attention from you, which he craves, especially if he's crated a lot.

I know when I have to crate my dog frequently, his energy level increases significantly, and I have to up his exercise to make up for it or he will act nutty.

Make sure you're not using the crate as a punishment. Have you tried a drag leash? Do you use a prong collar for corrections? If need be, you can tether him to you so that you're available to do appropriately timed corrections anytime he gets nuts.

Timing is VERY important in communicating to a dog. Pick the one or two behaviors he does that bothers you and correct them consistantly, EVERY time he does them. Don't get mad, just be firm and strong. If your corrections aren't timed correctly, the dog may not understand what you're correcting him for.

Don't forget that you don't only want to correct him anytime he gets nuts. You also want to show him what the correct behavior is...whether it's a down, a sit, or a "settle" command.

If you give us some more specific info, we'll be better able to help.

 Quote: sarah_morris

A few things pop out at me in your post

1. What's "social isolation"? I don't recall ever hearing Ed use that term before, nor seeing it written on this board. If it means crating a large 9 month old puppy for long periods of time then that may be part of the reason he's acting like such a nut when he's out.

Social isolation may be well and good for older dogs (as per Ed's groundwork for adults article) and has tremendously helped me when my 2 year old went nutters but I don't think I would ever like to think a puppy could be happy with that sort of detachment.

Drag line and exercise are key at 9 months in my experience. I think I may have hip dysplasia from the amount of exercise I got with my last pup!

Best,

Magdalena

Thanks to everyone for their responses. Let me be more specific about what we've been doing with Gus since a number of you asked for more details:

First, social isolation. I emailed Ed Frawley over a month ago to ask him about Gus's behavior, and he responded that we needed to go through the "Groundwork to becoming your dog's pack leader" program, the first phase of which is what he calls "social isolation." It involves keeping the dog in his crate all the time, and only letting him out to go potty and eat. Later you progress to having training sessions, and then progress to "free time" in the house, always on a drag line. As I said, we followed this program to a tee, starting about a month ago.

Second, we have already taken Gus to obedience school. We decided not to go back to that trainer for advanced training because we didn't really like him. So that's when we found the Leerbug site. We ordered "Basic Dog Obedience" and do 2-3 short training sessions with him every day, as Ed recommends. He does GREAT in our training sessions, knows the meaning of the word NO, walks great on leash, and we're working on increasing the time in the down-stay.

What I mean by "wild in the house" and what prompts it: When we let Gus out for free time in the house, he always has on a prong collar and a drag line. He is mouthy with a high prey drive, but I have never seen any signs of aggression (growling, guarding food and toys, etc.). So during free time in the house we give him a couple toys and a rawhide, which he loves. He'll frolick around, which we know is just him being a puppy. He rarely just settles down. But when we get up from the chair or walk to a different room, he'll do his "play lunge" at our feet, then quickly dart away and run around the living room. We know he's having a ball, thinking we're playing with him. When we catch his leash as he's running away and correct him for the wild behavior. He'll stop and sit, so I praise him for calming down. Then I release him with an "ok", and the play lunge and rampaging starts again. This can go on forever, and sometimes he gets mouthy. I know believe this is prey drive, not dominance. So instead of picking a fight with him, we'll heel him to his crate (again, this is advice I got from Ed Frawley's e-books!)

Overall, Gus is a great pup, but we just want to know what we should reasonably expect from him, and what we can do to teach him manners in the house. Thanks again for your replies!

Thanks for the specifics! Personally I don't understand the problem though, he sounds like a great, well adjusted pup! 9 months seems young to be training to be settled all the time in perfect obedience in the house, he's still a little fireball and while I understand you not wanting him to run circles on the ceiling other than redirecting his mouthiness and more exercise I don't understand what you expect for him?

Sounds like you are on the ball completely with training (good for you!!). Are you training him for any sport or anything specific or is he just a 'pet'?

~Magdalena

 Quote: Mike Arnold

Puppies have a short progression from playful to wild. If you are not anticipating the transition and intercept and correct it before it transitions, shame on you. You should be able to recognize the symptoms of the transition, and you should be able to intervene with a 'no.'

Well, now Mike, I don't think there's any shame necessary! If everyone was able to read dogs and react properly right away, then we wouldn't need trainers, Ed's articles, or this board! And it wouldn't be the first time someone has misinterpreted Ed's articles with the best intentions! But you're right about what you said about control (i.e. training) being largely made up of anticipation and intervention, for sure.

Liz, crating the dog isn't supposed to be a punishment. The social isolation that I *think* you're refering to is meant to teach dogs that YOU control their lives; that all good things come from you. It's often used as a method to introduce a new dog to a household, or with new pups. But it isn't something that should be an ongoing staple of your training.

Dogs should be well mannered with you, yes, but you can't teach a dog to do that if they're crated all the time and kept away from human contact. That will make them nuts...that is essentially what shelters do with their dogs and that's why many dogs (such as GSDs) do not fare well in shelters. But to be fair, we haven't even asked if this is a newly acquired dog...is he?

At any rate, you should move on to the next level. Crating a dog when you can't be with him is fine...but he should be with you a lot. This is why I suggested tethering the dog to you. It gives you a lot of control over his behavior, continues to show the dog that you control his life and also has you available for a correction at the exact right time. It really can work wonders.

I agree that he is a pup, and sometimes puppies like to get wild. But 9 months old is plenty old for him to be taught manners in the home. And, like Mike said, one of the best ways for you to teach him is to learn your dog, anticipate his actions, correct the bad ones AND reinforce the good ones (never underestimate positive reinforcement).

But I'd still like to know what his specific behaviors are, and when they happen. Otherwise, we're all only speaking in generalizations.


EDIT: I apologize for out of sequence posting! I didn't see the last few posts that were apparently made while I was typing!

Well, after reading your last post, Liz, I would say that the single biggest thing that you can do to improve his behavior in the house is to burn off some of that puppy energy. With my 10 month old...there is NO way I can walk him enough to burn off his energy, and he's still too young to take running or biking for long distances. I play fetch with him on the grass A LOT. Short sessions throughout the day, along with the walks. Nipping and jumping are things you can correct for, but you can't correct a dog into having less energy! Just not possible.

And I still suggest tethering him to you for a week or two. A lot of the behavior you described just can't happen if he's tethered to you, and the ones that can happen can be corrected in a much more timely manner than if you have to run to catch the drag line. Just my 2 cents!

 Quote: liz thomson

.... thinking we're playing with him. When we catch his leash as he's running away and correct him for the wild behavior. He'll stop and sit, so I praise him for calming down. Then I release him with an "ok", and the play lunge and rampaging starts again.

I don't believe your 9 mo old understands at all why he's being corrected. It may be clear to you, but it's definitely muddled in his mind. Something about the correction or your way of correcting has him thinking you're still playing with him.

I'm not saying to get harsher, not at all, but just to analyze how you're administering the correction, change what needs to be changed in the "delivery" of the correction. If you at all ever chase or chased him around, well that's one heck of a lot of fun for a dog

That being said, your pup sounds absolutely normal to me, as a prey driven GSD. My dog at 9 months was not the model house dog as far as behavior went. GSDs aren't lap dogs, they are great big beautiful driven dogs. Everything drives them. My older son's family's Maltese was behaving herself in the house at 3 months old. I remember a bit of envy on my part, but not enough to try to get my completely different personality/breed dog to behave the same way. Besides, the Maltese actually did a lot of what my GSD did, but because she's so very small it doesn't look as unacceptable and crazy as when a large dog does it. For instance, jumping on the sofa...not annoying with a little one as with a GSD.

Sure the wild type behavior can be annoying, no doubt about that. But after getting some respected advice, well, I'll just post the advice here and hopefully the person who gave it (Daryl Ehret) doesn't mind - it helped me change my thinking about Lear's "wildness" tremendously:

"All that hectic behavior is something we allow to retain, but while trying
to bring their focus through it. We also have a female from the same
breeder about Lear's age that is much the same. Because we will be training
her on the schutzhund field, quashing her energy and enthusiasm is something
for us to avoid, hence the different approach. She is crated for about half
the day, and now that she is maturing, it's tapering off a little with some
moments of disciplined calm. Letting Lear run loose in the yard much of the
day will burn off alot of that energy, and change his overall behavior
through habituation. Stern vocal cues from yourself can also be used to
convey when he behaves inappropriately within the home. Powerful but
smooth, not too sharp or emotionally charged. A verbal "correction" can be
misconceived as a punishment, but should be more of a persuaded guidance.
Just be consistent, and watch your timing on cues. A solid behavior change
is something to work at through positive/negative reinforcement, and bonding
with your pup. I'd avoid some of the "magic formulas" because they often
don't stick on a deeper level. If you want him to retain his "driviness"
then just crate him while you are away, when you return let him out first
thing to burn off the initial burst and 10-15min. training, and later back
inside to work on indoor manners. He'll have bi-polar personality in no
time ;-)

Daryl Ehret"

edited to add: Lear was 8 months at the time