We've been working with Brenna for almost 9 months now...her sit, down, go to bed, come are very good with the family and pretty good with distractions.

however, her "stay" is honestly, really awful...we've tried treats, very short "down-stays" with rewards including food and her toys(she goes into super overdrive with her toys!) varied collar checks and neck scruff rebukes which seem to have ZERO effect no matter the degree---she never gets her feelings hurt ever, and I've tried to gradually lengthen the times when she would down-stay...as soon as the food/reward/treats/check go away so does her attention span and obedience.

I found something today that is my real question...I wanted her to wait at the door for the kids getting home from school so she'll know to expect them again after the summer vacation--she would do this on her own before as a puppy when I had her out in the house with me. Today, I put her in a down-stay which she did immediately, but as soon as I left her 10 seconds later she was trying to heel or coax me into a game. After about 5 minutes of treats and repetition I finally got her to stay by totally ignoring her after the down-stay but I turned my back to her and sat where she could see me. It's like I stumbled onto the answer but don't really know what it was I did that communicated the command to her where she finally got it. Is this some form of separation anxiety???

She was rewarded, thank God, by the kids arriving a few minutes apart and she got to down-stay for both and got lavished with praise from me and the kids for waiting quietly by the door. I hope the repeated good behavior is something I can continue

but!!!

What signal am I giving her that's confusing her in her giving me a strong consistent "stay"?

thanks for your advice!

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What signal am I giving her that's confusing her in her giving me a strong consistent "stay"?

Sounds to me like she has lots of opportunity to practice the unwanted behavior of breaking the stay.

You need to go back to the begining and check your expectations for the next while. When I say the begining, I mean the begining! Dog in a down stay at your feet for 10 seconds, release.... 12 seconds, 15 seconds, back to ten seconds, up to 20 seconds..... you get the idea? This is all with you standing right beside her!

It was mentioned recently in another thread (can't find it) but you need to work time before distance, and then add distractions.

Once she can stay reliably with you standing next to her with no breaks 10 out of 10 times for a good amount of time (5 min? don't know the dogs age) then you can start adding distance. A very little bit at a time until you have an out of site downstay.

Remember you are training for success! If she is breaking you need to go back to where the dog is successful and work your way up again. I am talking about adding seconds at a time, and never being afraid to go back a few steps before going forward again! If the dog breaks every time it is just learning it can break the stay! BAD. Handler patience required for this one.

I have not had to use harsh corrections for this, just good timing and a matter of fact taking the dog back to the spot and putting him back down. HOwever I can't stress the importance of working the dog up gradually so the dog is not constantly breaking.

I am speaking from experience, I expected too much too early as far as stays with my dog. (He was so darn good with everything else). A certain amount of maturity is required from the dog too.

This has worked for me! My first goal was the 5 min out of sight dwonstay with strange dogs and distractions that was required for a test we had to take, but the uses abound as you already know!!!

Jennifer is right on. I've also pushed a little too fast before, and you have to go back to square 1.

The only thing I'll add is, in the downstay where you're not there, make sure the dog can't see you but you can see him. Generally when he breaks it I march into the room (businesslike), put him back into it while issuing the command, and march out. Honestly, Downstay out of sight is somethign that a lot of dogs won't be able to do till they're a 10 or 11 months old. That's WITHOUT distraction.

Oh! Last thing on the downstay out of sight. When you return, don't make a big deal out of it. A simple, quite, low pitched "good" and a treat are sufficient at this phase. What you don't want is a dog that is so amped up for your return (because it's so exciting!!) that he breaks the down as soon as he sees you, and starts a puppy dance. This is cute, until the down is really important and he can't hold it because he's anticipating all the fun he'll have once it's over.

 Quote: david eagle

Oh! Last thing on the downstay out of sight. When you return, don't make a big deal out of it. A simple, quite, low pitched "good" and a treat are sufficient at this phase. What you don't want is a dog that is so amped up for your return (because it's so exciting!!) that he breaks the down as soon as he sees you, and starts a puppy dance. This is cute, until the down is really important and he can't hold it because he's anticipating all the fun he'll have once it's over.

It is my preference to always return to the dog to release the dog. And I don't always release the dog the second I get to him. SOmetimes I walk around him or over him a bit. THis prevents the dog thinking just because you have come back into sight that it is okay to break. I mean release him from a distance once in a blue moon so he knows that is okay too, but generally return to the dog to release in the begining.

I also forgot to mention that putting the dog in a downstay (in the formal sense) to wait for the kids to come home is not a good idea unless you are there(even behind the scenes) to
a) correct the dog the second it breaks
b)release the dog to greet the kids.

If you are expecting the dog to stay and then let the dog get up and tail wag or run out to greet the kids without a release, she is just learning she can break your command.

Use a different less formal command or tone to cue the dog to hang out by the door and wait for the kids.

thanks jennifer...we'll go back to the drawing board. She's nearly 1 year now, fyi, and is doing pretty good all around, but the stay has been very hard. With treats, she does well, with her toys she's very good as long as she can see us...she's got incredible focus with her toys, but again, only if she can see us.

As soon as vision is lost it's like she doesn't have to obey any longer

Until yesterday sort of...again, she could see me but I wouldn't acknowledge HER and she not only stayed but stayed quiet and was relaxed, not waiting to explode like she usually does with treat/toy reward.

And that's a good reminder not to let her up just because the kids arrive...I screwed that one up already.

David, your first paragraph about being business like and putting her back into "stay" is exactly what I've been doing However, it seems to have worked in the opposite way for me/her...she won't stay or it's not very solid when she can't see me, but when she can--and I'm basically ignoring her--she does pretty darn well.

I helped I think by throwing treats to her from across the room while she stayed down...I think it reinforced the idea that just because I'm not within arms reach I still am in control...

anyway, I'll update you tomorrow...my other dog, pre-divorce, learned the "stay" SO easy and was rock solid almost immediately I've forgotten how difficult an idea it is to get across to basically a puppy(11 1/2 mos)

thanks for the help...any other suggestions are welcomed, too

Remember, once you're confident that she understands what you expect of her and she's, to quote Ed, "giving you the bird" -- it's time to start issuing physical corrections with a training collar (preferably prong).

But if you're not confident of that, you just need to keep working on it. Good luck!

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Remember, once you're confident that she understands what you expect of her and she's, to quote Ed, "giving you the bird" -- it's time to start issuing physical corrections with a training collar (preferably prong).

IMHO you have not trained the stay well enough to use corrections yet. You have admitted yourself you have given mixed messages (ie letting the dog break to see the kids)

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As soon as vision is lost it's like she doesn't have to obey any longer

Back up! I have more stay tips

Work on this in a predictable fashion for the next while. Do the excersise in the same place, at the same time, use the same reward. The dog should come to expect you are working on the stay, and that it will be fun. This will help the dog build confidence and understand the game.


Start as I mentioned working up to a longer time with you right there. Then with your back to the dog, then moving around a bit. When you start to work it out of sight, you want to work it SLOW! Like walk around the corner and return IMMEDIATLY go to the dog and release/reward.

One second out of the room and back, then two seconds then 4 second then back to one second, then ten seconds...and so on. The dog will learn that this game is predictable, no need to STRESS, you are coming back

You can also start the out of sight thing with someone else in the room (non distracting), they can signal you at first sign of break.... I concur about being able to spy on the dog while you do this so you can have good timing if the dog breaks. But the dog shouldn't be breaking hardly ever if you are training it right

Once the dog gets this, and you have mastered both time and distance, then you can try it in a different spot, reducing the time and distance of course (training for success remember!)

Also remember to NEVER give the stay command when you know your dog will break it!!!!! I see people do this all the time with out really thinking about it. If you need your dog to stay and you know she can't do it yet (distractions not yet worked in) crate her, leash her, tie her what ever but don't tell her to STAY.

An example of this is when folks here tie there dog outside a store and tell the dog to sit-STAY and then walk into a store, the dog gets up and, voila, it broke the command and no one cares. Like where was the dog going to go, it is tied up??!

Anyhoo, sorry you have not gotten more advice on this from others...there are other methods of teaching a stay. This is just what worked for me

Jennifer, 2 things.

1: Great advice on the stay. You're dead on. I want to go do this with my boy, and he doesn't even know what stay MEANS!

2: Holy mackerel, your signature picture is AMAZING. Blue skies, clouds, a toller in all his glory...Awesome!

forgot to mention that we use a couple of hand signals with the command...this is for long distance commands...sit, down, and down stay all have hand signals...she'll follow those pretty well, too

I'm wondering if a stim collar might be the most effective reinforcing the down stay once I recondition her using your suggestions, Jennifer? That way I can "touch" her from afar where I think SHE thinks she doesn't have to pay attention to me/doesn't get that distance doesn't = "ok, now I get to do what I want"

thoughts?

I've never used one and thought they were cruel until I read threads here where owners/trainers really used them properly not just to correct bad behavior, but to reward good behavior using the lowest stim as a marker, sort of...

anyway, I'll keep chopping at this problem a little at a time...

Edited by Mike Morrison (08/30/2007 01:32 AM)
Edit reason: spelling edit

 Quote:

I'm wondering if a stim collar might be the most effective reinforcing the down stay once I recondition her using your suggestions, Jennifer? That way I can "touch" her from afar where I think SHE thinks she doesn't have to pay attention to me/doesn't get that distance doesn't = "ok, now I get to do what I want"

thoughts?

Many use e-collars here, especially for corrections at a distance. I am not one of them (I am in no way against them, used properly) so I can't give you any advice on them except this:

If you think you might want to use one in the future, buy it now (with Ed's DVD on how to use it). This way you will know how to use it effectively when the time comes. Like I said earlier, I do not beleive you are in the correction phase yet personally, but that is only my opinion. Plus I don't think I would use it to "reinforce" the wanted behavior, I would use it to correct unwnated behavior. By your statement above you are saying that the dog does not understand it must pay attention when you are at a distance, so from that I get that you are not ready to correct.

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I've never used one and thought they were cruel until I read threads here where owners/trainers really used them properly not just to correct bad behavior, but to reward good behavior using the lowest stim as a marker, sort of...

Not cruel when used properly and fairly. As far as the stim to reward good behavior from a distance as a marker, you can use your voice for that unless your dog is deaf, but maybe I am missing something, I don't know a lot about e-collar use.

This makes me think about something you said before about throwing traeats at the dog when it was in a stay and such. One command, one release and reward. Build the dogs focus and confidence gradually. I do not think that trowing treats at the dog in this case, or giving your approval/encouragement part way through the exercise is prudent. It will only serve to reward/reinforce the dog's seperation anxiety/lack of confidence on this exersise.

Ciao,