Years ago, my husband and I had three male, neutered dogs. They were the best dogs but having three proved to be quite challenging when it came to keeping everyone happy in the attention department. I swore then that I would never again own three dogs.

Present day, I have two pet dogs...one neutered male, one spayed female, which really serve no purpose other than to eat, poo and give love (very important jobs, to be sure).

I have Levi that I am training for protection, who is truly the apple of my eye (like you guys didn't already know that )unaltered and has provided me with such an intense love of the breed that to own any other kind of dog from here on out seems unlikely. This of course, putting me at three dogs, once again.

I have always been more attracted to male dogs as I have felt their temperament to be much nicer than females. Since owning my female, I have stated that I would never own another female, since the female I have is so honery and feline in her nature.

For the last couple of weeks I have been browsing the internet looking at breeders that breed black, female gsd's. I would love to add a black shepherd to my crew but realize that another male probably wouldn't do well with Levi. I will sometime in the next two years have to alter him due to the receded teste. That may or may not make a difference since he does get along well w/my other male and I did own three males b4 that got along great (all neutered, of course).

I still have the issue of not really being fond of female dogs for their dominant, feline nature. Maybe all females don't behave this way...still, I envision myself actually getting involved with the sport of Schutzhund with a black female gsd. Somehow, I have myself convinced that a female gsd wouldn't have the attitude issues as a cattledog/lab mix, rescue from a feral existence.

Then there is the issue of breeding and altering a female. Does altering a female too early have the same effects as a male? I would figure they need their hormones to develp just as males do. How many heat cycles would I have to allow her to go through b4 I spay her? Should she be allowed to have at least one litter?

I would love to breed my Levi, as he has the temperment that I would love to reproduce. He does have the teste issue though. I have talked to his breeder and he has assured me that it has not been a genetic issue but would that be enough to put me at ease to breed Levi? I don't want to pass something on to future generations that might not be acceptable. Still, what if this was just a fluke?

Might someone give me some advice as to this dilema? How are female gsds? Would a male work if Levi was altered in a few years and I brought one in as a pup? Have I lost my mind? What's the matter with me? How is it that I have become so consumed with my dog and w/the breed and dog sports, etc that these thoughts are even running through my head?

Someone talk some sense into me please...

Robbin, I can't even count the number of questions you asked! I will try to take a stab at a few...

Why not just remove the recessed testicle? Why neuter Levi at all?

I don't like females either, as a rule. I think it's an opposite sex thing, and nothing more, b/c Mia is obsessed w/my boyfriend, and he thinks she is the bestest dog that ever lived. Puke. He thinks that Caleb is "a scary, vicious, dangerous wolf-dog." Clearly, he's demented, but I digress. I think it's the relationship w/males you like better, and not so much the gender itself...I'm sure you could have this w/a female, esp. if you worked her often, as it's great for bonding.

Why black? Don't get a dog for color. Get a pup b/c it SHOULD have the traits you want, or b/c that individual speaks to you for some reason. Most black dogs are ugly anyway.

Why spay? Esp. a working dog. Just don't let the inmates run the asylum. I swear, I see more freaky behavior from altered animals than intact. If you don't want pups from Levi and bitch "x", don't allow them to breed.

I know you love Levi, and that's great, but keep in mind that there may be 12 pups. Are you going to keep all of them b/c you can't find anyone else who thinks crossing working lines w/show lines is a good idea? Seriously, this is a huge issue. Only pet people (for the most part) are going to even be interested in this cross...and what if working traits show up that make them unsuitable pets? The working folks probably won't want them b/c there won't be enough, and the show folks definitely won't want them, and they may be too much for the pet people. So, Robbin lives happily ever after with 15 dogs, 13 of them being working/show hybrids that are too ugly to show, and too wimpy to work. To be brutally, brutally, honest, this is what you have to think about. You have no guarantee that they'd turn out as well as Levi...so I wouldn't do it.

Consider yourself slapped.

Jim, thanks for the p.m.

Actually, Jim. I welcome your frankness. More than anything, I don't want my desires to be validated but I want someone to talk some sense into me. I laughed out loud at Jenni's post (aint it the truth?)and nodded my head the whole time I read yours. No doubt, I agree with every word you said! These comments are exactly what I needed to bring me back to reality. I think I just needed it said out loud by someone else besides my own consciousness. Sometimes, if we don't check ourselves we have the ability to talk ourselves into things that our common sense tells us not to do. I can already feel the indecision and stupidity of it all lifting, LOL! Just another reason that I love this forum.

P.S. I hope Sandy doesn't hear what Jenni said about black dogs, hehe.

wait a minute, jenni, you own a black dog! LMHO!!!!

 Quote: robbinmann

wait a minute, jenni, you own a black dog! LMHO!!!!

Yeah, my ex wanted a black dog...I searched high and low for the better part of a year to find a set of parents who would *probably* throw a solid black (neither of Caleb's parents are/were black) that I liked the health, longevity, temperament, and look of. I think this black craze is awful. Breeding recessives to recessives just ain't my cup of tea. I see Caleb as a nice dog who happens to be black. I would not breed him to a black female unless she was absolutely exceptional in every way. I hate even being associated w/the black GSD people. UGH. The ones I see are absolutely terrible-nervebags w/hip issues, skinny heads, coyote ears and bone...yuck. But hey, they're black. And "rare." Ain't that great?! IMO, it's as bad as "blue Pit Bulls."

Remember, you asked for it. (slap)

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD... don't breed your dog because you just want her to have one litter, or your male is so nice you want to "reproduce him". (FWIW, this kind of thinking is the EXACT thought pattern of the backyard breeder). Sure you might keep one of the pups, (then you would have FIVE dogs by the way) but what will happen to the other 7-10 pups?? How can you be sure they will get great homes? Trust me I know, it is NOT EASY to place high drive, large breed dogs into good homes.

Please, please PLEASE leave the breeding to the breeders. Breeding is so complicated and involves a knowledge of bloodlines, genetics, biology, veterinary science, behavioural science, you name it. (Not to mention a lot of time). It is SOOOO HARD to do correctly. I know because I am in the process of trying to raise a litter of 4 out of a rescue dog (surprise) and it is incredibly difficult to raise puppies properly, never mind give attention to your family, kids, or other pets. Oh yea, and that thing you go to everyday to give you money.. what is that again.. oh yeah, work!! People think raising pups is a piece of cake but what if the puppies get sick or the mother gets sick and you have to bottle feed?? what if what if....

Leaving that subject.

From what Ed says neutering a dog after he is 2 years old has no effect on his drive or personality. If he is a monorchid he could get cancer after age 5, so neutering him would be a good idea for that reason. (This is what I read on Leerburg).

I have a couple of really great females. Both are mixed breeds. My first dog was a female who was spayed at 6 months, she was easily the best dog who ever lived. My current dogs, one was spayed after maturity and one is intact (the one with the pups) and they are both very sweet.

I see no reason for you not to get a female for Schutzhund work. Why not? As for spaying her, you should consider if you can reasonably keep her from being bred. If not, I would spay her after age 2. or at the earliest when she is finished growing (a vet can xray and tell if her bone growth plates have closed). From what I can tell in my very limited experience, a dog's drive is individual and isn't affected all that much by spaying.

Well that is my two cents. Hope you like it.

P.S> I just read the end of Jenni's post about the breeding and she said it much better than I. I decided to leave my comments in anyway though.

Well, that about sums it up - thanks again Jenni

Robinn, I have no doubt that Levi is an amazing dog, and a great match for you. Enjoy him for everything he is! I also don't see the problem with getting ANOTHER (fourth) dog, as long as you know for certain that you have the time and energy for all. What DOES make me worry is the breeding bit. I see absolutely no reason to breed a future working line bitch (which you actually don't have yet ) to Levi, just to let her have a litter. Jenni's points are each very valid (the truth hurts sometimes). You don't necessarily need to spay her, but keep them separated and avoid the puppy thing.

Breeding can sound awfully great when you imagine keeping a SINGLE amazing pup, from it's 2 parents whom YOU adore, but when you find yourself with a dozen tiny lives and no one to adopt them (worse yet, no one you would APPROVE to adopt them), it can be a very sad headache, and it isn't fair to any of them.

I can certainly relate to the sudden crazy urge to get another dog - you're not alone! Sometimes though, these things pass - and since getting a fourth dog will cause inumerable changes to the dynamics of your household, and you schedule of responsabilities, you need to make sure you don't just get one 'on a whim'.

Take your time with Levi. Love him, work with him, bond with him. If you don't want to neuter, just leave the one unreceded teste (it was my understanding that monorchid/cryptorchid WAS a genetic issue, even if this is the first occurance in his pedigree - mutations happen, and usually they should NOT to be bred to...). If you honestly want and can handle another dog, get another dog. But for now, I'd steer clear of breeding.

Just my 2 cents, Jenni took care of all the slapping

~Natalya

See my signature...

4 Dogs are a pain in the butt... 5's my limit, I swear! But especially 2 pups at the same time, if I had a 9-5 job like most people, there's no way I could keep up properly. I also doubt they will ever all be able to interact with eachother, Cujo is dog aggressive and it takes alot of supervision and CONTROL to keep him from biting the pups heads off when I let a pup out with him. Letting the other 3 together would be chaos at this age (7.5 months old), its bad enough with Cujo and Lyka in the house

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Ooooo, I'm starting to like this slapping stuff. J/K

Thank you, thank you, thank you to all that replied to my op.

I thought I posted alot of questions...there were tons of comments made that I never even thought of!!! Man I needed that! What would I do w/o you guys?

The thought of trying to find homes for 12 pups just about put me in a coma. Makes me appreciate what good breeders do, even more!

You'd think that 3 dogs, 1 cat, 3 snakes and a tank full of fish would be enough anyway. Really! What was I thinking? LOL!

Since Jenni has just slapped you I will not.
I have found temperament more dependant on the individual than on gender (with my pet breeds or hunting Beagles).
Unless the male you have is far supperior to any stud dog anyone could possibly find, and his genes are irreplacable, and their loss would jepardize the future of the breed you should not breed a cryptorchid male. The fact that the breeder says it's not genetic means nothing (they can't say without genetic testing). Genes mutate. Most mutations are harmful (third law of thermodinamics).
If you want to find out how much his genetics are in demand you could advertise him as a stud, and be sure to mention that he is a cryptorchid. Personally I would risk it.
If you breed him there is no guarantee that you will get more little Levis (with two decended testes). You would have a better chance by getting a sibling to him.
As Jenni said, will people buy a working/show cross? And especially if they know that the sire is cryptorchid?
Why not just get the cryptorchid removed, and a vasectomy while they are in there, and do agility with Levi.
The myth that a female needs to have pups before she is spayed is just that.
If three pet dogs was too much before, and you have 3 dogs now, why do you think adding a working line/high drive dog is going to increase your happiness?
As far as color: It's nice, but it isn't tops on my list when choosing a dog. A dog's great personality will overcome ugly. Pretty will not make up for an incompatable personality or an overwhelming dog responsibility.
Well, maybe I did slap you, but in a nice sort of way.