sorry, i had to vent.

on our walk tonight, two dogs charged out from their porch at luc. they were going from opposite sides and running all around, nipping/biting at luc. i kicked off one (WHY AM I ALWAYS KICKING DOGS? i really don't think i'm causing anything here) and deflected the other few times (i yelled NO! and, b/c i wasn't thinking, F*CK OFF! and yelled at the owners to get their dogs under control, but luc and i were getting away by the time they got themselves out there)

luc was unnerved, though he recovered fine once back on our street. i checked him and he doesn't have any pain spots so i don't think he had any punctures or anything. then i went back, got the street address, and called animal services. the most they can do is report a bylaw infraction of unleashed dogs, but i did that and they'll be sending officers out in the next 3-7 days to talk to them. the dispatch said 'are you sure of the address? there's no dogs registered there' but frankly, if you're enough of an irresponsible a-hole to let your dogs run free and aggressively like that, why would you bother registering them.

i am SO angry. what is wrong with people? why are there so many irresponsible and lazy dog owners? ARGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!

and on another note, i'm thinking of skipping our training sessions for awhile. the last session (from the thread about aggression escalated from a scruff hold) kind of upset me as i think about it, and didn't take into account who my dog is or how he behaves. i can now walk luc on a martingale or flat collar and have him heel. it's a relaxed heel, and he does pull after the washroom break, but he quickly stops that.

i just feel like he and i are doing really well with obed. ourselves, and as we do better and better at that and as i take on all dog and human interactions for him (or try to....stupid idiots), luc's aggression is mostly disappearing. and it was never over the top anyways. i take what mike and others said about luc's reaction to the paw icing/scruff hold as not 'true' aggression. and actually, last night i was giving him a massage and he was mouthing me playfully (sometimes he reminds me of a puppy) and so i tried grabbing his muzzle to see what he would do. he got annoyed. so i kind of see it as, i respect him, he respects me. but am i being soft on him thinking this?

the trainers are SchH trainers, and i was advised b/f going to them to expect that they'd be harsher than a regular trainer. i have corrected luc in the park for aggression towards strangers (growling/barking) but i feel like that was in proportion. the trainers keep telling me that luc is just manipulating me through avoidance - so is luc a well-behaved dog who is learning to respect my leadership everyday, or is just manipulating me? i am a first time dog owner, they're the experts, but i'm sorry - last week was stupid advice, and i don't think they bothered to take into account who luc is. he shook the entire class we were there last week. he doesn't do that when it's just he and i working together at home or outside. they'd tell me it's b/c he's manipulating me through avoidance b/c it's stricter there....i have to wonder if that's BS. experienced dog people? am i being soft or am i listening to my dog???

edited to add: i do have ed's basic obedience, i don't see why i couldn't use that in addition to what we've already learned. also, i'm lucky that this board is such a great resource.

 Quote: jennifer mullen

sorry, i had to vent.

on our walk tonight, two dogs charged out from their porch at luc. they were going from opposite sides and running all around, nipping/biting at luc. i kicked off one (WHY AM I ALWAYS KICKING DOGS? i really don't think i'm causing anything here) and deflected the other few times (i yelled NO! and, b/c i wasn't thinking, F*CK OFF! and yelled at the owners to get their dogs under control, but luc and i were getting away by the time they got themselves out there)

luc was unnerved, though he recovered fine once back on our street. i checked him and he doesn't have any pain spots so i don't think he had any punctures or anything. then i went back, got the street address, and called animal services. the most they can do is report a bylaw infraction of unleashed dogs, but i did that and they'll be sending officers out in the next 3-7 days to talk to them. the dispatch said 'are you sure of the address? there's no dogs registered there' but frankly, if you're enough of an irresponsible a-hole to let your dogs run free and aggressively like that, why would you bother registering them.

i am SO angry. what is wrong with people? why are there so many irresponsible and lazy dog owners? ARGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!

I hear you on this. I have a whole bunch of neighbors who seem to think that having their dogs run around the area unleashed is ok. one is an owner of about 4 pit bulls and the owner himself isnt too stable. he's off. I ended up walking my dogs in the direction away from his house and only for a short distance because there are loose dogs all over. I reported his dogs to AC and the next step is to submit a picture of the loose dogs. I hear they may ask us both to attend court which I really dont wanna do. first off, Im oging to have to take off of work, second, I wanted to remain anonymus because we're pretty much on good terms. we're not "friends", but we're not enemies. and unstable folks like that, well, I dont wanna be enemies with them..lol. its frustrating but Im trying to improvise.

I am a little bit lost about schuthzund trainers. Did you go see one? I'm a little confused by what you were saying about your trainer thinks your dog is going in avoidance?

I don't think that avoidance is necessary mean that your dog is being manipulative. It means the dog is trying his best to ignore whatever is bothering him.

we're not traing for SchH, but the trainers do SchH training/personal protection/sport protection training. so i was told on another board to expect them to be harsher with my dog than another trainer would maybe be, b/c that background has a harsher approach (that might be BS too, i dunno)

i don't really see luc as being manipulative. generally he comes across to me as trying his best to do what i ask him to do. but they're telling me that when he goes into avoidance, he's actually trying to manipulate me and if i give in he's training me to do what he wants.

....it was weird, i was debating how much i wanted to continue using them as trainers despite a significant $ investment (who cares really, i want what's best for luc) just a few minutes before the two dogs went at luc.

colin....only that it would be crazy of me to go over there, ring the doorbell, and punch the guy in the face is restraining me (i try to be the calm leader for luc....plus it'd do nothing positive for the complaint i registered with animal services)....i don't know this guy, so i don't care about our relations. but i can get why you'd want to remain anonymous.

Wow, we have a lot of ground to cover here Jennifer! First off, is mace or pepper spray legal for civilians to carry in your part of the world? If not, a walking stick (while a pain) can not be illegal (I don't think). If you can carry pepper spray, be careful of the wind direction when it's used, and buy two cans. One to see how it sprays and the range it has and one to use, or not. If you must carry a walking stick, get a good light stout one (ash is a good choice), go into the back yard and play like the kung foo movies, just to get the feel and balance. 'Warning, poking with the end can break ribs very easily, and swinging down on top of a nose of a dog will kill.' Needless to say you must be committed with this weapon, but a stick is very effective for detering almost all dogs......without any real harm to the animal except to imprint that you and your dog are not to be messed about with.
Now for a question, are you training Luc in SCH.? It IS very demanding for dog and handler. If not why are you asking for advice from those teachers?
Dogs are manipulators, that is how they've survived all this millieum. If he and you fit.............Thats all that counts! And who cares what anybody else says should be.
Randy

thanks randy....i'm pretty sure mace and pepper spray are illegal here, to be honest i don't know. i am pretty sure bear spray is legal, i should get some of that....heh. i've never used a walking stick as i'd feel weird walking around the city with one, but honestly - it would've been useful tonight, two dogs on two sides is kind of hard to physically intercede, a stick would have been great.

in terms of the trainers - we're not doing SchH. when i first got luc (end of june) i noticed he had some aggression issues - not huge, but there - territorial and fear aggression. he wasn't a dangerous dog or anything, but i wanted to be responsible and address it. most of the trainers in the city do obed. only and are of the happy happy school ('just put him in a gentle leader and everything will be FINE') so i didn't see those trainers as a good fit. other trainers i contacted sounded like they thought luc was a frothing at the mouth imminent danger, which was ridiculous, so they didn't seem like a good fit. i wanted to find someone who had experience with GSDs, and the trainers i'm taking luc to were recommended by several people.

they are regular plain old dog trainers - for regular plain old pets - but both do SchH themselves as well as train it, and the owner also trains personal protection etc. i initially really liked them as they didn't assume luc was the devil incarnate. but due to vacation and me being sick, we missed a stretch, and now - since we're doing aggression control classes w/basic obed, rather than obed. w/aggression control help (if that makes sense) they seem to have maybe stopped focusing on luc as luc as now just see him as an aggressive dog, and one harder than i suspect luc is. i was told to expect them to be harsher as trainers in regular obed. b/c they had a SchH background.

but last week i was told that b/c luc got upset when i iced his paw, that i needed to take him home, keep him on a choke chain (which i am NOT doing, i do not have the experience to use that safely), and basically to start a fight with him - deliberately provoke his aggression - and then either throw him or pile on him aggressively and basically do a huge physical assertion of dominance. but luc is well-behaved inside and out. when i take him out in public, i get constant 'what a polite well-behaved dog' comments....people were even talking on a bruce trail hike last weekend to one of my mom's friends about this great dog that had been on an end-to-end cdn thanksgiving weekend....that was luc. so the grudge match/beat my dog down approach seems out of whack with the perception of people who interact with him otherwise.

and also - why does he shake at our trainers? just to avoid me training him? that doesn't make sense to me, he doesn't go into avoidance when we do our obed. sessions at home and in the park.

i'm really seriously thinking that while our trainers are probably really great for hard dogs (i posted ages ago about my pregnant friend with the two dangerous dogs, she's taking them there, and i think her dogs really are that aggressive), maybe not so much with luc. luc's aggression has really resolved with his greater faith in me and a couple of corrections. it makes me wonder - sandy once said that luc may not be so much of a fearful dog as just an underexposed dog given his background, and i wonder if the same doesn't apply to his aggression.

sorry, this post has probably been long and wandering. hopefully it makes sense.

Bear spray is pepper spray, only 10 or 15% stronger. Gee, have to be careful with that stuff. Seriously careful. It will blind directly into the eyes, and can kill small animals if sprayed into the mouth. And beware of the wind!
To be fair, we'd take the stick or spray to the humans that own the offending dogs, but unfortunately we can not do that. So one does what one can do to protect ones self and loved ones.
Let me get this straight, you have a dog with agression problems and they (you) are reenforcing it?????????To get control of it????? Do I have that right? Either I misunderstand what you are saying or something is really amiss in the comany you are keeping or the communication between you and the teacher about what is wanted as an end. Let's be clear here; YOU ARE THE TRAINER, YOU are paying a teacher (tutor) to help you to acheive what YOU want. Make it clear to the teacher (your employee) what you want, if he/she can't or won't provide that, dust your hands of them and move on. You sound like you have some good sense, so go with your gut feelings. That way you and your dog can both be happy with the end.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

i think i like the stick idea better, i'd really end up spraying myself.

let me be clear - I DID NOT FOLLOW THAT ADVICE - but yeah, i guess that is essentially what they were saying. the trainer told me to do something i knew provoked his aggression, and then give him a huge correction. which is sort of reinforcing his aggression, i get what you're saying. i: a)try to follow the thought that i should set luc up for success, not failure, which her advice runs counter to; and b)thought i'd be a big bully/jerk to deliberately get luc aggressive and then pile on him for it. maybe that sort of thing would work with another dog, but i'd really feel like a bully if i did it to luc, and i can see it setting back our relations and how much he trusts me.

and thanks....i think i do have to go with my gut. and my gut is very unhappy. part of me just wants to cancel for the next couple of weeks (i'm in avoidance! heh) but part of me thinks i should go and hash it out. it's a three hour round trip for me (1/2 to take transit to my mom's to get the car, 15-30 minutes to drive back to my house to get luc, and about 45 minutes to drive across the city to the trainers (or teachers, that's a good point). then all in reverse. i may decide how to handle this based on how much i feel like driving around for.

and frankly - i spent a month training luc in between classes due to the aforementioned interruptions - and that's really been a great base. i realized that i'm really learning how to communicate with him and that i am capable of training him myself. which is pretty empowering actually.

Trust is a grand thing. I don't know the story about icing the paw but I'd try it again if I were you, just to show Luc you would never hurt him and if he got too agressive or fearful, I'd let it go and try again a few days later, etc. until even if unwillingly, he would allow me to ice his paw. Use your voice, and sooth him. It may take awhile, but who cares? This isn't a race. In fact do what ever seems to work in all phases of his training to your satisfaction and expectations, however long it takes, there really is no set rules to follow, only guide lines. While it isn't a race, I can guarantee all are winners that commit to the journey.
Hey, do you suppose the instructors told your friend with the dangerous dogs to take them home and provoke them, and then to "try" and domineer them physically?
Randy

Jennifer
Time scale is unimportant if you want the help, meaning travelling time. Twice a week i take the Dogs for Training but it is in the evenings, I leave home at 6.15 in the near Dark, some times it takes me over one hour and twenty minutes to drive to the Club depending on the Traffic jams. I do not get back home until 11.15, But it is worth it.
11 month old Fred Has some issues which need addressing, and my brother and i sure need expert help to put us right, probably more than the Dog. If Novices with G.S Dogs like us do not take notice of what experinced Trainers tell us then we must lay in the Bed we make for ourselves.
I for one will drive half a day to get Fred training and get his problem sorted out if needed,
He Loves the Sleeve and has a hell of a bite for a young dog so i am told, and is coming on well in Tracking,
He has an issue of Obedinace, of which we ourselves need to be taught how to overcome the problem, So we are grateful to the Experinced Fellow who heps us correct them , but as he says it has to be done now whist he is young, and it will not be resolved in two minutes, it will take time and patience