Hey all! I finally have the time to be more active here again! And as it happens, I have need for your opinions (and I'm sorry it's so long...I want to give you the full story in an effort to get the best advice.

My 13 month old GSD, Carbon, has (as some of you may remember) a dislike of other dogs. He's been this way since 10 weeks of age, actually.

Around the age of 6 months, it had gotten to the point where I had to start using a prong. ONE really good correction with it made him tolerate other dogs (by that I mean that we could walk past another dog without him going ballistic, and I could get him to avoid making eye-contact). I was actively exposing him to situations where other dogs would be so the proper behavior would always be fresh in his mind. It was always something I paid attention to, and worked on.

For 6 months, he was to the point where he would behave when we walked past other dogs, even close to them. He was doing REALLY well.

However, a couple of months ago I fractured my foot and was unable to walk him. He got his exercise in the form of endless retrieves until I was more mobile. Then the next month, when walking resumed, we never saw any other dogs (it's cold and desolate here this time of year).

Yesterday, we did see another dog. A medium-sized Poodle who was being walked between two people who kept their dog's line short. They handled their dog really well, actually...throughout the Carbon drama, they just calmly walked past us.

Carbon, on the other hand was a mess! I saw this dog coming, and as I always do, paid attention to Carbon's reaction so that I could correct at the first sign, if need be.

The minute he saw the other dog he focused and started barking (happened in tandem). He got a strong correction (level 7, I'd say) immediately because I know how important the early corrections are. But I might as well have been hitting him with a Q-tip.

Then the growling/posturing started and he started straining toward the dog and I gave him a level 10 correction (the strongest I am capable of, anyway, which I think it pretty strong) and again, he kept on increasing his aggression.

Bear in mind that the whole escalation to insanity took less than 5 seconds. Honestly.

I had what appeared to be a rabid dog. He was on his hind legs, frothing, shaking his head and thrashing his body, growling, barking, trying to bite at the leash. At this point, it was all I could do to just hang onto him. He's about 80-85lbs and had great traction on the dirt path. I'm 5'11" and pretty strong, but he's obviously stronger.

Prong corrections, which had normally been incredibly effective, had no effect on him. Well, that's not true...it was hard to gauge during the nuttiness but I do know that it's very possible that the prong increased his aggression. The prong was fitted properly, was the proper size and the pops on the prongs were given correctly, I'm sure of that much. But while I consider myself a good trainer, I was humbled by this experience! For the first time, I could NOT control my dog.

Removing him from the situation, or increasing the distance between the two dogs wasn't a possiblity just because of the nature of the landscape: This section of the trail was a narrow valley in between two steep hills.

And I'm not sure if it was just the two months that lacked exposure to other dogs that did this 180* turn, or if my weakened condition when my foot was fractured made him think he could attempt this, of it it's just that he's maturing into one hell of a hard dog, or if there was something about this poodle that just ticked him off. Or all of those things.

I would have said that I know my dog pretty darn well, but I admit to being totally surprised by the sudden intensity of his reaction...it was out of character. One minute he was happy, heeling perfectly next to me...and then suddenly a blind rage...it was SO INCREDIBLY SUDDEN! It was so weird. And as soon as the dog had gone about 15 feet past us, it was as if the corrections caught up with him. His ears were back, and he was submissive posturing to me.

At any rate, the prong collar isn't working...either because I'm not strong enough to correct him hard enough now that he's so strong, OR because it's just escalating his drive OR both.

I have worked with dominant dogs and aggressive dogs and hard dogs many, many times, and I guess I just got lucky because I have never had the prong NOT work, or stop working.

My thought is that it's time for an e-collar.

Which FINALLY leads me to my question...I have used an e-collar for distance training, but never for aggression issues. Other trainers I have spoken to about this situation said that they agree, and that I should use the e-collar, but others said that an e-collar can cause an increase in aggression just like the prong does.

So! I've decided to order the DD DVD AND the e-collar DVD and the Dogtra 1700NCP and the DD collar. I figure it's a good thing to have all of these things on hand, regardless.

But I would like the opinions of people here on the board who have used either method for severe dog aggression. DD collar or e-collar. Both?

Carbon was never attacked as a pup, and has lived from day 1 with proper pack rules in place. He's not handler/human aggressive, doesn't mind bikes, runners, rollerbladers, gunshots, fireworks, firetrucks, wheelchairs, children, squirrels or other animals. Just dogs.

So...help? I'm trying really hard to make this into a learning experience...one that will make me a better trainer instead of just an embarrased handler.

Amber,

As long as your sure that your getting the correction in before he escalates with the prong, I would try the DD collar next.

I am not an expert, but I always try the "lesser of two evils" first before going to an e-collar.

 Quote: carol boche

Amber,

As long as your sure that your getting the correction in before he escalates with the prong,

Hey Carol! Yeah, I'm sure I got the correction in before he escalated. But I really think the prong might have actually increased the escalation in this situation. There was limited space and a quick approach by the other dog, so maybe that's why things got hairy so quickly. <shrugs shoulders>

I'm getting the DVDs for both collars so I'll be well-armed the next time it happens. And I needed a higher quality e-collar anyway.

But I'm curious as to why you think the DD collar is the "lesser of two evils" compared to the e-collar?

It is pretty much personal preference and the fact that some of the dogs I have in belong to people that are not comfortable with or can afford an e-collar at this time, so I need to use alternative methods for those dogs.

Adding, usually the dogs I work with are not so "highly dog aggressive" to the point where good exercise, proper corrections and socialization doesn't work. I find alot of it is due to the handler tensing up and "feeding" the dog.

Somehow, I do not think this is the case with you though , and it may be that an e-collar is the way to go.

This is interesting. My experience with dog aggression has been limited to a a couple of foster dogs, but my reaction is that if you think a hard prong correction either escalated matters of just failed to get through, then stim from an e-collar may well do the same. The great thing about a DD collar is that it calmly reinforces your control and can be used to refocus the dog on you. JMHO, however, and I'd be interested to hear what more experienced folk have to say.

 Quote: Sarah Ward

This is interesting. My experience with dog aggression has been limited to a a couple of foster dogs, but my reaction is that if you think a hard prong correction either escalated matters of just failed to get through, then stim from an e-collar may well do the same. The great thing about a DD collar is that it calmly reinforces your control and can be used to refocus the dog on you. JMHO, however, and I'd be interested to hear what more experienced folk have to say.

I thought about that as well......

Well, I am familiar with e-collars at least (not for aggression, just for distance training) and so I have a level of comfort with them already. But in terms of using it for full-blown aggression...then it seems to me, like you said, that an e-collar might escalate matters just as the prong did. However, I have heard that the escalation happens if the collar is not set to a high enough stim to take the drive out of the dog. Some collars don't even offer stim that high, I've heard. Other people say it just depends on the dog.

But I have never had the need to work with a dd collar before. The prong has all I've ever needed for many, many dogs. I was under the impression that the dd collar was to be used as a final solution for a dog that was out of his mind with aggression, or was handler aggressive. I don't know if there are any "levels" of correction with a dd, like there are with an e-collar or a prong. Can someone tell me if that's true?

I was wondering if it's possible to use them in tandem, with the dd collar as a back-up in case things do get nuts.

I'd like to be able to have certain levels of corrections that are less than hanging the dog. I want a strong correction, but I don't want to hang him when he's just making eye-contact. I was thinking a good stim on the e-collar ought to be effective there.

I don't know if an e-collar would have worked yesterday, but I have no doubt that a dd collar would have, and I wouldn't have hesitated to use it. Man, I was wishing I had one! But I'm thinking that an e-collar might be good for polishing once he gets the idea that dogs are off-limits.

I'm assuming all of this is covered in the e-collar and/or dd DVD? I'm rushing the order (next day delivery) because I want time to review the dvds and get him used to the e-collar before I proceed. But I am NOT going to let this issue limit where we can walk. He has got to learn to behave. I have to learn how to make him! Good thing I don't mind a challenge!

 Quote: Amber Morgan

He has got to learn to behave. I have to learn how to make him! Good thing I don't mind a challenge!

Carbon is growing up......

Hi Amber,
I'd go with the DD collar. The prong is just pissing him off and likely the ecollar will do the same. I use the ecollar on low stim when getting dogs to ignore critters or other dogs. A high stim when there is even eye contact will ikely make things nasty.
If you go the route with the DD collar then you need to be physically and mentally ready to follow through once you start. If he bites you have to stay in it. You cannot let him win even once! If he wins then it is twice as hard the next time.
Carbon sounds like a real challenge so I wouldn't do this without someone who has been to the wall with a dog this hard before.

Howard

 Quote: Howard Knauf

Hi Amber,

Carbon sounds like a real challenge so I wouldn't do this without someone who has been to the wall with a dog this hard before.

Howard

After re reading this whole thread....it seems I have underestimated Carbon.....
I agree with Howard.