It's the only way I can describe it, and it's very frustrating.

My last post was about my roommate moving in with his 5 year old purebred husky. She was ignored for 2 years and seems to be a bit socially stunted around people and has not been around many other dogs. When she is, I'm told she "can be a bitch" and is dominant.

I've been keeping my dog at my side as much as I can to help re-establish groundwork, making her eat in her crate because the dogs will fight over food and toys, and not letting the two play unsupervised.

But when I let the dogs on the porch for a little bit of outside time, or if my dog goes to her crate for me to let her get food, my roommate's husky is on her like white on rice. I can't tell if it's aggression more than dominance.. the husky weighs more and is taller than my dog by probably 10-15lb and at least 3". When I walk by with my dog or my dog is around, she will walk up and stand over her, or open her mouth and they bite at each other - mainly the husky grabbing my dog's face (big no! ) and trying to bite/whack my dog with her jaws open. I always try to place myself between the two dogs but it's not often easy since I have to bend OVER them and I don't want to place myself somewhere that they can jump up and catch me.
Another thing is this husky will SLAM my dog into walls, couches, windows.. anything. Especially if both are on the porch, I sit next to the door but I'm thinking of separating porch time permanently. The husky starts to push my dog with her shoulders, then bite at her ankles and elbows until my dog moves, then tries to clash jaws or latch onto her face or neck and just pull. By that time I'm up and separating them, but it's very frustrating. She constantly uses every opportunity, even when passing in the hallway, to ram my dog into my legs or a wall or nip at her elbows or face.

Since the husky isn't my dog I won't train her or discipline her, but merely pushing her away or trying to hold her away by the collar is ineffective as is going "NO". I suggested a drag line to my roommate but he only has a 30' nylon leash for her and isn't around all the time. He's home less often than anyone and it's my other roommates that let his dog out of his room to go potty, not me, and when she goes potty they don't lock her back up. I keep my dog crated until I'm home and when I let her out I try to make sure she's away from the husky but his dog will walk up and stand over mine when I'm sitting in the chair next to her or walk up and push past me to nip my dog or step on her, and I'm increasingly frustrated with the dog's lack of respect. I haven't done anything like grab her muzzle and say no or put her in any down/sit commands, I just place myself between the dogs, try to physically push her away with a firm NO, or put my dog in a sit or down and drag his dog away by the collar to the hallway or other room (where she gets distracted and walks away like nothing happens ).

What's the best approach to this? I can't correct his dog like I would mine, and he isn't always home when this happens (works late ) and when he is he always corrects her and pulls her away, puts her in time out (15 minutes of dark bathroom lock-up ), or makes her lay at his feet. But it hasn't DETERRED her from continuing to do it whenever she can. I want to feel like I can do more than continuing to go "NO" and push her away/stand between them. There has not been one "real" fight break out since she came here and I intend to keep it that way, but my dog does NOT like being pushed around like this and is getting to the point where if she's on the other side of our couch and I call her, she WILL NOT COME if the husky is anywhere nearby and won't walk past the husky so I have to get up and bring her over. My dog will obey when I say "NO" when the husky instigates this nipping war, but she can't get AWAY from the dog until I or someone else steps in. I think I just have to keep them separated somehow, which is very hard in a small apartment without confining a dog.

What advice does anyone have? (thanks in advance)

If your roomate won't control his/her dog then it's left up to you to do it. You need to keep your dog away from this bully or your going to have big problems not to far in the future. If your gonna go out on the porch then it's up to you to make sure that the other dog is put away so it can't get to your dog. If you talk to your roomates about the problem and they refuse to cooperate then they're just being rude and you need to find another place or another set of roomates.
By allowing that other dog to dominate your dog your going to cause dominance problems and/or fear problems in your own dog. Hold the line on this one because this could turn into much more of a problem then you see at this moment.

Well, a timeout is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

Have her lay down is the polar opposite. A firm correction (one firm enough to remove or reduce drive) followed by being force into a submissive position (platz) may be effective. If the behavior is continuing she either doesn't get it, or doesn't care enough about the corrections. He can up the corrections if he's comfortable with that, or, and I think this is the only real option, you can sit down with him and talk to him about the problem.

Get his permission to put his dog away when he isn't home, if you want to have yours out. He must agree that a dog is the owners responsibility. If he can't be home to be responsible for his dog, you putting it back in his room is a service that you're providing him. There are steps you can take to get these dogs to accept each other, but there's no sure fire formula, and frankly it sounds like you just need to separate them.

Also, the dragline idea that you had is a good one. I'd go a step further, suggest basic pack structure work, tell him about it and see if he's receptive to the idea of having his dog tethered to him when the dog is out in the house.

Ultimately, it comes down to him taking responsibility for his dog. If he won't do that, you just need to live around that fact. That might mean that you take the initiative, if he's not home and his dog is being a butthead, YOU get the dog and put it back in its room.

Dear Jenn: I agree that you should talk with him about his dog. Maybe come from the angle just as room mates need to respect each others space, so do their dogs. Let him know that if this dominate behavior continues, there will be a fight and then things will really heat up. Since his dog is the agressor, I would suggest to him that he keep his dog separated until he can train it. I hope he is receptive. It is such a drag to have these problems without much success.
How old is your dog? His? Maybe you can come from the aspect of your dog being older and not good for her to take this type of treatment.
Who owns the house or apt you share?
Hope things work out,
God bless you

 Quote: jinn schmitz

Since the husky isn't my dog I won't train her or discipline her, but merely pushing her away or trying to hold her away by the collar is ineffective as is going "NO". What's the best approach to this? I can't correct his dog like I would mine, and he isn't always home when this happens

 Quote: jinn schmitz

I can't correct his dog like I would mine,

Hi there Jinn.

It sounds to me that from your roommate's dog's point of view, the pack goes like this, from top to botom:

1. Your roommate
2. Her
3. You
4. Your dog

If she doesn't respect you...you're in for trouble.

You CAN correct this dog and you SHOULD, IMO. If the owner isn't doing it...you have to. It's not like this is just a friend's dog that you see once a month. You have to LIVE with this dog.

Bottom line is that you all live together SO, like it or not, you're a pack. They don't get the "roommate distinction." If you are not correcting this dog then not only are you not being a good pack leader by protecting your dog, but you're also telling your roommate's dog that YOU are lower in rank than her as well as your dog.

Dogs don't understand roommate politics. They understand rank, and what establishes it. The people should be the pack leaders, the dogs come next.

You need to talk to your roommate and establish that if he isn't home to do the corrections, or if he's going to do them incorrectly (or both), then you're just going to have to.

OR, you're going to have to keep the dogs totally seperated.

But your roommate's dog should at least respect YOU. A dog doesn't see you as someone who's not correcting her because she has a different owner; she's seeing you as someone who's not correcting her because you're lower in rank.

Send your roommate here. We'll chime in!

Thank you - I foresee this as a big problem if it isn't remedied soon, so I came here for advice (and got it!) because I don't want my dog confused and not knowing where to go and who to look to for support or becoming aggressive/too submissive.

I'll bring it up to him. He's aware his dog is a bully and gets very exasperated with her, it's almost a constant struggle to keep her from seemingly randomly walking past my dog and deciding to dominate her. His dog is usual to me.. honestly I'd call her dumb, but it's probably her breeding/upbringing (being ignored for 2 years I'm sure didn't help).

She just does not seem phased by corrections - he has taken her by the muzzle and gotten in her face with a firm NO, LEAVE IT and kept her in a down for 5 minutes before letting her even acknowledge my dog, or corrected with a prong collar, but within 2 minutes of being let up she'll mosey on over to where my dog is and seem to ignore her, then (in a classic "oh whoops how did that happen!" manner) reach down and bite my dog's elbow or push her into the wall and walk on, or linger and try to incite my dog to play/fight (not sure which at this point, she's SO hard to read). Since this doesn't happen in any pattern, we can go all evening with both dogs being great, and then his dog gets excited or even my dog gets excited and his dog runs up and takes it as an opportunity to tackle my dog (well, try to).
I don't want my dog to become afraid of other dogs, but I don't want her to feel like she has to become aggressive/bullying in return. I'm already trying to let her see that I'm alpha and to respect me, but when I can't do a simple recall in the house because she won't walk past the husky, I find it very frustrating.

What I notice is there doesn't seem to be blatant aggression - no growling, stare-downs, pulling back of lips, or anything.. she just perks her ears and nips to (what it LOOKS like) get my dog to play, but it ends up with my dog being pushed around like a puppet and being unable to escape unless my roommates or I are there to interfere (which I hope they don't let both dogs out without me knowing while I am at work - so far nobody says they have).
We've tried a scenario where we let the husky roam the living room/house by herself and crating my dog, but it turns into the husky teasing my dog through the crate (not leaving her alone) so she's riled into a frenzy of barking and trying to get out so she can run around - which I don't like, but the crate is in the only place we have room for it, the breakfast nook (connected to living room) and it's very frustrating.

Sharon, my dog is about 3 years old. His dog is 5. Diaz (my dog) is about 40lbs, and I wager his husky is 50-55lb. My roommate and I both have names on the lease, it's a big 3-bedroom place but very cluttered so it can be difficult to section off "areas" for the animals (especially when we already watch the kitchen like a hawk because his dog has taken to using it as a buffet for trash (in closed cans?!) and counter-surfing ... although the owner says she's never done it before, it's not an excuse to let it go on and we're working on placing traps and cans and all sorts of deterrents in there for both dogs.

edit, Amber: Ack, you posted as I posted!

I didn't want to correct his dog because I felt is disrespectful to my roommate to "take over" his dog as he sees it, but I'm going to have a talk with him if his "corrections" don't start to make a change in his dog's behavior. He sometimes brushes it off as "she's just being a bitch", but I don't care if she is.. I don't want it. She wears a flat collar in the house.. but what I don't understand is that his dog seems.. almost dense. He'll correct her, force eye contact, put her in down, and the whole time she tries to stand up as if nothing's wrong. Not a struggle to get away, but a confused, "why can't i get up?" behavior where she just does not seem to comprehend that she was corrected. Perhaps he is not doing something right, but I've seen him give her hard prong corrections and she'll stop as if she snapped out of something and look around and completely ignore him as if nothing happened and she was the only one in the room. It's as if she forgets before she has a chance to remember or even comprehend a correction.
Very odd to me.

Edited by Jinn Schmitz (11/24/2007 04:47 PM)
Edit reason: Amber made a post

Well, the good news is that it sounds like your roommate is willing to try to work on his dog. Good first step. Next comes learning how to be effective!

If a dog looks confused after a correction, it's because she IS! A properly corrected dog doesn't look confused...she looks humble! I wouldn't blame it on the smarts or lack thereof of the dog. I mean, she might not be a genius, but ALL dogs get what proper corrections mean. Even puppies do. Their mother makes it clear from the beginning.

A dog shouldn't be corrected in obedience unless she knows what she was supposed to do and elected not to do it. So, in other words, if he said "down," and she didn't do it properly and then she looked confused by the correction, then either she doesn't really know the down command, or the handler's timing was off.

And if you're correcting for pack issues, then there should be no confusion on the part of the dog...again, that's if the correction was timed correctly AND done properly.

 Quote: jinn schmitz

He'll correct her, force eye contact, put her in down, and the whole time she tries to stand up as if nothing's wrong. Not a struggle to get away, but a confused, "why can't i get up?" behavior where she just does not seem to comprehend that she was corrected.

Okay. How do I explain why I think this is wrong.... Well, for one thing...you said she "tries" to get up. Does that mean he's holding her down physically? If so, then she doesn't get the command and that could account for the confusion. And even if she does know the down command perfectly, then she's not associating the correction with aggression to your dog...she's associating the correction with the down command. And, all of this came after forced eye contact. That's just too much for the dog to connect all together. Simple, clear communication is what's needed here.

A down is not a correction, it's a command. Forget the down. When the dog shows sign of aggression to your dog--staring, tense body language, etc...THAT's when you give a good, strong correction with the prong...no later than a second after it happened. No need to take all of the steps of the eye contact, the down, the correction, etc. Just one good, well-timed correction AT THE MOMENT of her aggression. Otherwise the dog just won't get why she's being corrected. No offense to your roommate...but that's not a dumb dog, that's just bad training.

And this is something that needs to be done EVERYTIME the husky engages in aggressive or bullying behavior. Which means that ALL contact between the two of them for quite some time will require that someone is there and ready to give a correction if necessary (enter the drag line that was already mentioned), and they'll have to be seperated until this gets under control, IMO.

It may seem like a pain in the butt, but the only other choice is to live like you're living now with a good chance of it getting worse. And it really sounds from your posts like this is a situation that really could easily improve if you just put in a little time.

And remember, the better the correction...the less likely it is that you'll have to do it many more times.

A warning...I know from personal experience that a prong correction given at the wrong time can escalate the whole ordeal. So be careful. You know the dogs better than I do, obviously, but it sounds to me more like what you have going on here is more of a dominance display than actual aggression. Actual aggression is really ugly...it's pretty hard to mistake it when it happens.

Anyway, does this husky have any obedience training on her? It sounds like she could use some.

And as for her ignoring the prong corrections...to me that sounds like you either have a hard dog, or the prong collar wasn't on properly. Either way...a proper prong correction cannot be ignored.

I realize I just threw a bunch of stuff at you...sorry about that! This situation does NOT sound hopeless to me. Perhaps you guys could consider bringing in a qualified trainer. If your roommate doesn't listen you you, maybe he'll listen to him/her. If someone is physically there to guide you (as opposed to over the internet) then all of the pieces might fall together for you guys. It really sounds to me like this is fixable.

Using the crate to help with the problem is a good idea but you must take it a couple of steps farther. When your dog is in the crate you need to create a husky free zone around that crate. You can either do it by putting your dog in another room with the door open and not allow the husky to enter the room or you can try putting the crate in a central area where you can keep a good eye on what is going on.
One of my GSD's is a dominant dog and she will try to dominate others if I am not there controlling the situation, so when I added a puppy to my pack I used this method. I did not allow any contact between the dogs for at least 4 months in my situation (before I felt I could safely give it a shot). I would not allow my female within 10 ft. of that crate without a stern warning from me. When I felt comfortable with her compliance level I allowed her to be closer by about half that distance. My next step was to down her by the crate (again when I felt comfortable that I was getting the correct response every time). By the time my pup was about 6 months old I allowed them to be together under very stringent control. These two dogs today get along awesome. I'm sure had it not been for my controlling the situation this way I would have a disaster on my hands today.

Again thank you for all the helpful advice. We've separated the dogs as best we can for now, different balcony times, different potty breaks, and kept them almost completely separated in the house.
I find it really interesting to watch the structure of both dogs.. since coming to the house, the husky has gotten some bad habits like waltzing up to trash bags and just sticking her head in and chewing trash at her leisure (well, before we caught her, of course) and now my dog has tried to sneak into the trash (which she hasn't tried in MONTHS since I caught her last and re-trained). The husky barges through doorways, so my dog thought she could barge through them (nope, SOL!). The husky yodels and mumbles and growls, my dog tries to "talk back" when given a command now. The husky tried to saunter into any room without permission/behind our backs, my dog has tried to enter forbidden rooms. It's really neat (and FRUSTRATING!) to see the breakdown of all my training in such a short period, but definitely a learning tool.

 Quote:

Okay. How do I explain why I think this is wrong.... Well, for one thing...you said she "tries" to get up. Does that mean he's holding her down physically? If so, then she doesn't get the command and that could account for the confusion. And even if she does know the down command perfectly, then she's not associating the correction with aggression to your dog...she's associating the correction with the down command. And, all of this came after forced eye contact. That's just too much for the dog to connect all together. Simple, clear communication is what's needed here.

I meant he puts his hand on her shoulder and "holds" her down - not push, but just doesn't allow her to stand until she lays still or gives him eye contact. When this happens she goes into a down (he "holds" her after she is down and only if she tries to release without command) and tries to get up before commanded to - but she doesn't look like she's struggling to get away, she just looks confused as to why she can't get up, not connecting being held in place to having to stay in a down it seems.

I am unsure of her training - she listens when she feels like it or when he gets up to correct her for not listening, so it's not exactly reliable. She may be confused, a lot of times when he gives her a command she follows it, but barks/grumbles/yodels/howls the entire time she does the command - so she does do what she's told, but makes a fuss the entire time. Could this just be that she's gotten away with being vocal when responding to commands or her way of saying she's confused?

Hopefully things will work out, my roommate wants what's best for the dogs, but I understand his frustration too because he works all day most every day and our other roommates take his dog out so she isn't confined for 12 hours or so while he's at work. He'll have a talk with them as well as myself.

Use crates and keep the dogs seperated.