I've been keeping you guys pretty much abreast - Macy (7.5mo/old GSD) was extremely nervous when we brought her home, in the backyard she is now fully relaxed, tail up, focused and great. On walks her tail is back, ears forwards, pulls only when surprised. Approaches strangers slowly, and has little interest in them, generally...Overall, she's come a very long way.

Erp. HAD come a very long way. We went to petsmart last night and she was freaked out. I cut the visit short because she was so timid. When we left she actually went into flight (that was a first) and tried to pull me to the car. I took her for a walk tonight and she was pretty bad...Tail tucked, when we got to a busy street she actually started drooling, and when we got back to the residential streets she pulled me back into the neighborhood. Ears back. We got back home, I and our sprinklers (which were on as we approach) terrified her. She went into flight again.

Is this a flawed temperament? I know about fear stages, and my Sheltie went through them, but he was never this...out of control and fearful. Fear / timidity is NOT in the GSD temperament...when will she be...essentially grown up enough that I can determine whether or not she satisfies the breed standard in regards to temperament?

She wasn't amazing before this, but I felt like she was making progress. I'm just ignoring the behavior, and keeping her in motion, but I'm concerned.

David, Is there anything that could have happened to her while you were not home? Or is she indoors and crated?

It sounds like Petsmart was too much. I would back it up.

Are you doing confidence-building training?

I'd spend some time on the edges of the scary things.... at the distance where there is no fear reaction.

Just a few questions.. Sorry I think I missed the posts when you first got Macy, I will see if I can find them. If you have already answered these questions, I apologize:

Was she kept primarily outside before you got her?

Does/did she exhibit object fears? If so, were they more geared towards objects that were inside a home or otherwise completely enclosed area?

Had she ever been into PetsMart or an otherwise large, brightly lit building prior to last night? If yes, how was she at that time?

Prior to going to PetsMart had she been more fearful, or was it when you got there, and afterwards?

If only at and after the visit to the store - did she have an empty stomach?

It is not uncommon for a dog that has been doing well outside and in it's home territory/usual walk territory to revert back to fear and avoidance/flight if taken to a pet store. I have noticed a tendency with shy/fearful dogs that are not necessarily weak-nerved, but had negative experiences or zero exposure to be more sensitive to stimuli on an empty stomach. They are more "worried" and stress out faster.

Even though she had been doing well prior with things at home and in the neighborhood, being stressed from her negative experience at PetsMart will cause nervousness to resurface even in areas where the dog had developed confidence.

Occassionally, though not often, Duke will spook at something he has seen and ignored for weeks or months that just suddenly caught his attention. As he matures he becomes consistently better/less nervous, and is gaining confidence, but I don't expect him to be at his peak until he is around 2 years old. He is only 1/2 gsd (and 1/2 dobe) but I don't expect him to mature mentally until at the very earliest 1 year of age.

Does Macy have a sensitivity to everything? Is she weak nerved, or just inexperienced and lacking confidence? A dog that is not weak nerved that just lacks possitive experiences and confidence is much easier to rehab out of fearful/nervous/flight responses, but it may take until she matures mentally.

Ah I missed my edit time while I was typing and just lost all the stuff I tried to ad.

I went back and read the post of when you first got her. Considering it has only been 3.5 months and you really do not know if she had ever been exposed to anything but what she was born seeing, it can be difficult to judge the cause of the behavior as temperamental or from negative/lack of experience.

How long did it take her to gain confidence and relax? When she was gaining that confidence did you have to really work her through things like walking on eggshells or was she curious?

It is not uncommon for dogs as young as she is to revert back to being nervous after only working on the issues for 3.5 months

Carol: She's crated in the house when we're gone, so unless something scary happened outside near the window...hmm.

Connie: She's been to petsmart before. In the past she's done ok, and when she starts to show signs of anxiousness we do quick, easy OB then goof off on our way back to the car. This visit was totally different.

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Was she kept primarily outside before you got her?

As a puppy, she was kept in a room with her litter mates. There were four dogs in the litter.

 Quote:

Does/did she exhibit object fears? If so, were they more geared towards objects that were inside a home or otherwise completely enclosed area?

The first day she was nervous about everything. Subsequently she was fine. A few weeks after we brought her home a soccer ball was kicked into our back yard, she came out, saw it, and got her hackles up. Then she attacked it.

 Quote:

Had she ever been into PetsMart or an otherwise large, brightly lit building prior to last night? If yes, how was she at that time?

See above.

 Quote:

Prior to going to PetsMart had she been more fearful, or was it when you got there, and afterwards?

She loaded up just fine, she came out of the car normally, the first sign of nervousness was when we got to the sliding doors, she hesitated when they opened, and the rest of it was....we literally walked around one aisle, I weighed her, and we left. She was very obviously freaking out.

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If only at and after the visit to the store - did she have an empty stomach?

She had not eaten since 8am. This happened at about 8:30pm.

 Quote:

It is not uncommon for a dog that has been doing well outside and in it's home territory/usual walk territory to revert back to fear and avoidance/flight if taken to a pet store. I have noticed a tendency with shy/fearful dogs that are not necessarily weak-nerved, but had negative experiences or zero exposure to be more sensitive to stimuli on an empty stomach. They are more "worried" and stress out faster.

Even though she had been doing well prior with things at home and in the neighborhood, being stressed from her negative experience at PetsMart will cause nervousness to resurface even in areas where the dog had developed confidence.

Occassionally, though not often, Duke will spook at something he has seen and ignored for weeks or months that just suddenly caught his attention. As he matures he becomes consistently better/less nervous, and is gaining confidence, but I don't expect him to be at his peak until he is around 2 years old. He is only 1/2 gsd (and 1/2 dobe) but I don't expect him to mature mentally until at the very earliest 1 year of age.

Does Macy have a sensitivity to everything? Is she weak nerved, or just inexperienced and lacking confidence? A dog that is not weak nerved that just lacks possitive experiences and confidence is much easier to rehab out of fearful/nervous/flight responses, but it may take until she matures mentally.

If you'd asked me this two days ago it would have been easy to answer. Now it's a little less clear cut.

In environments where she is totally confident (i.e., the back yard) she is anything but weak nerved. Loud noises usually don't bother her, and when they DO make her jump she immediately checks them out.

What I'm trying to figure out is basically your question. Is she decently nerved and lacking experience? Or is she just really weak nerved? Have I been giving her experiences incorrectly, socializing badly? Why the disparity between the back yard and the sidewalk?

 Quote: Jennifer Marshal

How long did it take her to gain confidence and relax? When she was gaining that confidence did you have to really work her through things like walking on eggshells or was she curious?

It is not uncommon for dogs as young as she is to revert back to being nervous after only working on the issues for 3.5 months

It took about a week for her to gain confidence in the house. Another week in the back yard (a week of going back there for at least an hour a day)

In the first post I mention that she wouldn't come out of the car when she first came home with us. She wouldn't enter a new room in the house without being lured in with treats. She wouldn't walk OUT of the house once we got her in it, unless I basically abandoned her. Then she chased after me...reluctantly.

If she suddenly became fearful, without the context of her first few weeks with us, I would be less concerned about it. Because her initial acclimatization was so difficult, and showed a weaker nerve, I may be overly concerned about this weeks events.

I just want to know if she's got what it takes to work, and I'm thinking it's unlikely, but I don't want to jump to that conclusion.

Oh, ONE more thing. On Friday of last week I began working on pack structure (again), which means she went from spending a good deal of time out in the house with us (tethered) to spending the majority of her time crated (with grooming, 2 walks, potty time, and a very little free time).

I couldn't edit the question in my first post regarding nerves vs negative experiences, got back to this post too late after reading your post about her and when you got her.

Two things pop into my head - she was kept with her littermates, and she has recently had her comfortable routine changed.

I think she is probably very pack oriented from being left with her littermates. Doggy, which made her bond to you and her trust in you slower to develop. I like that her reaction was to attack the soccer ball after her initial "Woah! Holy wow!" reaction - great mental image. I don't like soccer balls much either :laugh:

Her confidence at this point may be limited to when you are with her. You may need more time to build a stronger bond before implementing the pack structure back into your routine - if she had a decent but still not totally solid bond and trust with you, and then is suddenly being seperated from her pack, her confidence could take a big hit if she feels like she is all alone in defense of herself.

I would go back to bonding and OB/confidence building and gradually ease her into greater amounts of time crated. Duke is 8 months now, I got him at a bit over 12 weeks, and I have yet to strictly enforce pack structure the way I normally would (as you described above). Because of his rough start I am waiting until he is more mature, and then it will be gradual as he is very pack oriented. When the trusty leader is suddenly not around as much, a pup whose self confidence isn't up to par in the first play may feel it has to rely on it's own guns when it thinks the poo hits the fan.

I would say that it was more than likely the doors that caused the snowball to start rolling down the hill - which I have encountered a lot. Those sliding doors are something else. I can see how she would be avoiding doorways/entrances, and would not want to get out of the car.

As a suggestion, the next time you start to see the nerves kick in, instead of trying to continue, just stop, ask for her attention/redirect, once she redirects her attention to you, then you can back away from the doors/trigger, do a bit of confidence building OB with over enthusiastic praise/reward, and then continue on. Break the cycle when you first notice it, before trying to continue on and having to face the escalated levels of nervous/fearful/flight response. It goes really really quick sometimes, which you of course have now witnessed.

Just my 2 cents. I wouldn't give up on her working potential, though. As an example, I have zero intentions to attempt to turn Duke into an actual PPD, and when I first got him he would hit the floor like a tone of bricks, roll onto his back yelping, and urinate all over himself when any stranger, let alone an imposing one, would even so much as look at him.

The other night walking down to the elementary school he stopped mid walk - I thought he had planted, so I stopped and turned to look at him and he was standing big and tall with head held high, ears up, and staring down a group of suspicious looking guys that had emerged from a driveway across the street. He let out a gruff warning bark, growled, took a step towards them, and despite my glee at his confidence, I redirected/praised, and continued the walk.

A month ago I never would have thought him capable of anything but at best, a lowering of the head and a nervous glance to those guys. I guess his gonads are coming in handy :laugh:

Don't loose hope just yet, it doesn't sound, to me, like she is weak nerved in general - just lacking experience/exposure.

Hi David - I have made similar posts about my 1-year old male GSD, which you have replied to, so I thought I'd reply to your post. I should say though, if it's not already blindingly obvious, that I am a novice, and am learning (a lot!) as I go, so I can only relay my own experiences to you with some confidence :-)

It sounds like your Macy and my Gus were cut from the same cloth! I've been dealing with similar issues to what you have described, and I'm starting to realize, with more information and better observation and insight, that Gus is under-socialized and lacks experience and confidence. My husband and I also followed the Leerburg method of obedience training and pack structure, which meant a lot of time in the crate when Gus was about Macy's age. At that time, we always did OB, but in an effort to create a bond with him and make sure he knew that "all good things come from my mommy!" I did not socilize him as much as I should. Like I said, I'm a novice and that was my mistake.

Similar to Macy, Gus is totally confident in the house and backyard, never spooks at loud noises, and his only object fear seems to be the vacuum cleaner (which we're successfully desensitizing him to! :-) He was extremely confident when we brought him home, but he started showing signs of fear and uncertainty at around 5 months old. I have been told recently by trainer/dog behavioralist that pups start developing a meaningful sense of confidence between the ages of 4 months and 8 months, and if positive, consistent socalization doesn't take place during that time then when they get a bit older they just won't know how to react to new things, and more often than not they'll act fearful! (I wish I had gotten that information 8 months ago!!) Similarly, if there is a major disruption in their lives, it can errode some pup's confidence (hmm... we moved to a new house when Gus was 5 months old... go figure!).

It sounds to me like Macy just needs to build up her confidence and bond with you by doing basic OB on her "territory," and then slowly progressing to OB in other areas that might be slightly stressful, but don't overwhelm her. I've been taking Gus to the library parking lot (it's just 5 minute bike ride away), which I've found is an ideal place because there are not many people, and the people who are around tend to completely ignore us. I have a few places around the lot at varying distances from the front entrance and other people that I'll make Gus heel to, play the watch me game, sit and do basic OB for 30 - 60 seconds, then move to another spot, using lots of praise and treats if he acts calm and does what I ask. He's starting to see it as a fun game and an easy way to get yummy treats when he does what I ask, and the constant moving prevents his nerves from acting up and makes the experience very positive. You can try this with other places Macy already knows, or even the PetSmart parking lot (don't go inside the first few times, but when you eventually do, continue the method inside if she's responding well).

It sounds to me like an exposure thing, but if you work with her more on the socialization then I think time will tell whether she is sound enough to be a working dog.

Liz