Hi there board- long time, no write...

Well, my Malinois, Elvis, is right at 1 year old and I have noticed some scary behaviors from him lately & I need some advice.
There are a lot of questions in this post regarding Elvis’ recent aggression and I am fearful when it comes to addressing it- experienced dominant/aggressive dog owners please help!

Background:
He has always been a possessive dog, very protective of his toys and food- which included growling and snapping at our hands if we reach towards it when he was under 6 months old.

He got corrected as a puppy, but probably not as hard as he should have been since he still does it time to time. He is a very hard dog and recovers quickly from a hard correction. Fast learner and reliable obedience, unless he has something else on his mind- stubborn and independent when he’s distracted.

We have basically just avoided confrontation and hand fed him. We keep our 2 year old away from him.


He also is a "bite first, ask questions later" kind of dog.
If you step on his tail, he growls and snaps- even if it's a complete accident. He immediately acts submissive if he realizes you aren't actually trying to hurt him. This is another reason he can't be around my son.


Recently, he has been at it again.
The food aggression has been an issue- he scarfs down his food as soon as you command him to eat and his body language shows all type of possession over it. I wouldn't dare try to take it away.

PROBLEM:
The other day I put his food down and he didn't seem to have much of an appetite so I pushed his face in the direction of his bowl to make him see I put food there (kinda encouraging him to go eat it - we were two feet away from the bowl) and he growled and snapped, like a switch!
I immediately yelled "NO!" and grabbed him by the collar. At the time he was off leash so I popped him on the head with the cup I pour his food with. (oops- my bad- but that's the only thing I could think of to do. I wouldn't have done this if I could have planned for it.)
He laid down and acted super-submissive for the next couple minutes. I made him do some obedience and wouldn't allow him near his bowl on a verbal command and made him yield to me around the yard a couple times.

He also has been reluctant to eat food from my hand lately. He just sniffs it and then looks at me like "drop it so I can eat it." His body language is strangely stiff while he sniffs my hand.

This was last week and I have been doing more pack structure stuff and trying make sure he knows I am the pack leader. He gladly submisses and obeys and has been well behaved if I am a more aloof with him.



I just got an ecollar to use for offleash obedience. I have a DT Systems Micro IDT super trainer model with 16 levels.
I finished collar conditioning him and went out to find his working level today. I suspected it would be high since he is a hard dog. I assumed he would have a working level of #6.
Well come to find out- it’s #2.
#3 makes him act stressed (he tried to bite the air on the side the box was on when he felt it the first time – bite first, ask questions later)
#1 he ignores.
But after I found his level, I began to pet him near the collar and his body language stiffens and he gets that strange looks. He didn’t snap this time.
He did this again when he was drinking water from my hand while wearing the collar after finding his level.


Extra factoids:
He just began lifting his leg to pee so his is entering puberty (he’s 12 months).
There a Pomeranian in heat that’s been at our house in the last two weeks- that’s when the aggression has begun to show again.

Are these affecting his aggression?


How do I handler aggression with the ecollar?
I am going to cut out the physical affection, petting as a reward until I know he won’t bite.

OR…
Do I just need to be myself and if aggression appears, correct the snot out of him?
I hate walking on eggshells to avoid any aggressive confrontation with him. He just needs to knock it off. But to be honest- I am afraid of getting bit and he knows it. – What do I do?

Please tell me if I am enabling this behavior and if I need to use a dominant collar and make the light go out for a little bit to teach him. I am afraid he will bite me during this ordeal as well. Sigh…

Alison, he doesn't want to take food from your hand anymore because he KNOWS how to show submission, and does so at other times... he isn't sure the food is HIS now, or yours, or is something he is permitted to have while you are there holding it.. try just filling his bowl and leaving it for him. For now.

Help him feel more secure with some NILIF (nothing in life is free) and some more structure, some OB training for a few minutes daily.

While some feel forcing every issue with a dominant dog and winning is important, try now to remember you have a dog who doesn't know why you are mad at him about his food, why he has to be handfed, and if the food in your hand really IS his-- or yours, and he should wait for it to be available.

Increasing structure will calm him. (why should he worry about vying for the top spot in his pack, it isn't available? Mom is the boss) To focus him on you more and what YOU want of him, try increasing his level of pack drive. Does he like to be brushed? Daily grooming can help him be more receptive.

Has anything in his world changed in the last few months besides just hitting teenagerhood? The NILIF and increased structure can help him have some sense of calm and stability within his pack. I don't believe in letting a dominant dog walk all over us, but I would want to achieve what I can with the dog together, as a team-- and be wary of too much over-correction at this time. Try your best to take the conflict out of the relationship, play, train, walk, groom him... remember what you love about him but tighten up those NILIF rules, and just let the food issue alone for a bit. He wants to submit, wants to eat, doesn't understand his food isn't in danger, and just needs some stability now. JMHO.

I want to address two mentions of being afraid of the dog. This is a big problem. QUOTE: I am afraid of getting bit and he knows it. END

I have worked with dogs I knew might bite me, and I had to learn that I cannot go into any interaction with the dog with uneasiness or timidity.

The dog can't win if there's a confrontation. The dog can't snap or growl at me and see me back away.

I'm not sure how to say this in a non-scary way, but if I have a dog I have to live with and the dog does aggressive resource-guarding (whether he is dominant-aggressive or not), I have to get my mind into acceptance that I might be bitten. Yes, I'm planning not to, but I am not going to act fearful.

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=14&Number=144790&Searchpage=1&Main=15349&Words=Connie+Will+Rambeau&topic=0&Search=true#Post144790

If I found it impossible to radiate authority over the dog, I'd get training help.

 Quote: alison voore

He is a very hard dog and recovers quickly from a hard correction....

He also is a "bite first, ask questions later" kind of dog.
If you step on his tail, he growls and snaps- even if it's a complete accident.
....
I immediately yelled "NO!" and grabbed him by the collar. At the time he was off leash so I popped him on the head with the cup I pour his food with. (oops- my bad- but that's the only thing I could think of to do. I wouldn't have done this if I could have planned for it.)
He laid down and acted super-submissive for the next couple minutes.

I agree with Connie in that if you are afraid of this dog you really cannot work him through the aggression. Being afraid is obvious to the dog, and gives him the upper hand. Expecting to get bitten is a good way to get bitten.

I also want to ask why you think your dog is hard? From the information you gave and what you said about the e-collar stim and the correction you gave when he growled.. he does not sound like a hard dog, to me. How submissive does he act when you correct him? What do you consider to be a "hard" correction, and how hard did you hit him on the head with the cup? How does he act when given a "hard correction"/how long does it take for him to go back to "normal"?

IMO you were extremely lucky not to get bitten when you wacked him on the head. You stated he is already snapping at the air/collar - I would not suggest ECollar corrections for aggression in a dog that already "bites first asks questions later."

Also, how did you introduce the ecollar? When you stimmed him, was it actually to correct him or were you just stimming to see what his reaction would be? Does the collar you have (I am not faimilar with any but Dogtra) have a constant and a nick? Did you use constant or just nick him? Did you say "No!" first and give the 1.5 seconds as Ed suggests, before you used the stim? Do you have the ECollar training for the pet owner DVD? http://www.leerburg.com/318.htm

As far as the food from your hands causing him to be nervous - I think inadvertently you have taught him that he does need to defend and fight for his food, but at the same time growling and snapping it not appropriate. He may see you as alpha, or he may not - not taking food from your hands can be a sign of respect, but if you attempt to force him to take it from you, it becomes taking food from the alpha and that sends a mixed signal. Once he gets the food he is not sure what you are going to do and so tries to warn you off with body language - which works.

Pack structure needs to be addressed here and I suggest a good amount of OB work, limit his time off a lead. If you really are afraid of him, get a muzzle, there are several great models here at Leerburg.

Thanks for reminding me to focus on the positive parts of the relationship and not the aggression issues (negatives). I haven’t had a lot of time to actually enjoy him lately and it’s come down to just telling him to stop barking and a quick walk for exercise’s sake and feeding him.

I usually avoid brushing him because it excites him too much and he just keeps puppy biting my hands really hard but now that its colder I can wear a winter jacket for protection.  I will brush him more and enjoy our ob and maybe jus teach some tricks for the fun of it rather than “OB”.
NILIF for sure now! I feel like I’ll go back to groundwork now since something is different.

I really feel strong enough to put my mind to correcting him if he needs it- even if it means getting bit. I think what makes me so afraid is that I don’t understand why he’s being aggressive so I am not sure what to do to fix or prevent it. That’s when I run to Leerburg… lol!

Sometimes I feel like I am frozen in time knowing he’s showing the signs and like I’m just waiting and expecting to get snarled at. Maybe that’s when I need to verbally correct and be prepared to act further if he doesn’t back off, rather than backing off myself.

I reread my paragraph about the ecollar- I am not going to use it for the aggression- what I meant to say is “What do I do about the potential handler agression while using the ecollar OR is this merely something that will disappear after he is more comfortable with the ecollar?
This morning was the only morning I have actually had the collar on and stimmed him. I was finding his working level by gradually increasing the level from 1 until he responded slightly to a nick. I checked continuous too, but that is a stronger level based on the pulses it does in continuous mode. I don’t have the video.
I hope to start working with the stim before the elash corrections on leash for certain behaviors. He really was well behaved after even the stims this morning and I wasn’t even using them as a correction. He seems to have a split personality. 

Even before the aggression issues I have been working with pack structure and I have found he is reacting more soft to corrections due to this, but under distractions (cats, game, deer, cars, he is very hard- he will take a firm pop of the prong several times and immediately go back in drive and start after the distraction again. Being choked until he can contain himself does a better job. He will not respond to verbal corrections at all under strong distractions.

That is why I got the ecollar- his recall fails when we are at the dog park and offleash mountain biking. He will get a lot more exercise (which is good in every aspect) if I could control him offleash. The ecollar is the only solution to my issue at this point. His recall is great if he wants to come- but if not, he’ll look at me and then go back to what he’s doing. Mention a way to strengthen a recall and I’ve probably tried it! 

Good advice about not overcorrecting through this time- I’m glad I sought advice first.

I will get back to pack structure and enjoy more with him. I will work more OB and do controlled walks. Thanks so much for helping me! Sometimes I just need a little clarity through my frustrations.

Alison,
I freely admit I don't have the experience with dominant dogs that Jennifer has, but any dominant dog I have had to deal with would not act submissive even if I had hit them in the head with a cast iron skillet. In fact if anything, I think if I had dealt with them like that one of two things would have happened, they would be right back at me and I'd have a fight on my hands, or they would get their eyes uncrossed and look at me with a new respect. What ever would happen though I can guarantee it would not be submissive behavior. Keep it in mind, agression is not always dominance oriented.
As everybody has said: work on your pack structure, the dog needs to know where he fits. It'll help him to relax. Get and referance Ed's videos, clearification is a good thing!
Ah yes feeding and food. First hand account: I was attending a tracking club meeting and some certification trails, we were meeting at a fellow members home spread. She raises and breeds DDR GSD's, feeds raw, and houses the dogs mostly in groups of 3 or 4 the best I can determine. Any ways, during a break in the meeting she walks over to the one fenced area I could see with what I would guess was a couple of racks of ribs and back bone of deer. The kennel area had one small pup and three adult dogs, I thought hmmmmm. But no issues at all as far as the dogs were conserned. The alpha took his pick, the next in line pick up her piece, the odd adult calmly watched and the pup tried once or twice to horn in but was warned off with low growls. Now the fascinating part, when the alpha decided he'd had enough for the moment and left his side of meat the last dog moved in to eat. After awhile the alpha obviously wanted more, he would walk to the female and sniff, walk over to the odd out dog eating and sniff, and even the pup that had gotten away with a bit, but at no time did he force the issue and try to take away the food of a lower ranking dog! He waited until everyone had their fill before he sat back down to eat more. Once given the alpha does not take away food. Interesting lesson no?

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

Edited by randy allen (12/09/2007 08:26 PM)
Edit reason: puncuation

Randy brings up a good point - not every aggression issue is based in dominance of a dog. There are many different sources of aggression. I completely just overlooked a few things in your post. This is entirely my fault, I sort of locked on to a few details (got in hurry) and overlooked some important facts. Good catch Randy.

And I will have to say, I don't consider myself an expert with dominant or aggresive dogs :laugh: yet :laugh: I've just dealt with my fair share of them.

Now that I read your first post more carefully I am not sure that he is a dominant dog. You state several times that he submits and is submissive in different situations. Dominant dogs do not actively submit unless actively dominated. Which is not recommended on a dominant dog except in extreme situations.

As a question.. when Elvis becomes aggressive, what does he look like? Does all the hair on the back of his neck go up, does he snarl and show his teeth and eye you hard? Or does he only growl and snap and not fully commit to an aggressive attack? Take a look at my website: http://www.freewebs.com/theanimaltrainer/dogwolfbodylanguage.htm
it shows pictures of body language, and that something as simple as the way he holds his ears and tail can be the difference between aggressive dominance and defensive submission.

Is his aggession limited to food and toys, or is he dog aggressive/stranger aggressive or.. ? If his aggressive behavior is limited to toys and food and he otherwise is obedient and submissive (unless distracted, which is normal for a dog's "hardness" to increase under distraction no matter if it is a soft or hard dog to begin with) then I suggest whenever you feel you need to move him from his food for some reason, to trade, and not just take.

Pack structure is still important, and it helps create a bond as long as you are fair and consistent. You need him to see that you are not going to just outright steal his food - if he is highly food driven and resource guarding, he views that food as absolutely the highest value thing on earth. His very life depends on THIS MEAL! He sounds more nervous and a bit sharp, than truly dominant aggressive. If you can condition him that when you come near it is only because you are giving him something (not taking something away) then you can calm him down a bit. But be aware of the fact that just because he might not be dominant aggressive doesn't mean he will not bite.

If you do work with him on possessiveness, I suggest getting the ECollar DVD first. Until then, until you can assess his behavior some more to see the full scope of his temperament (dominant or resource guarding or..) I would leave him be with hid food. You can try having him sit, and then tossing him small pieces. Tossing him food is a very obvious way to say you are giving him something you do not want and being at a distance to begin with he will be more comfortable. Ah, I forgot to ask if he is raw fed? Raw fed makes the small pieces easy, if he is kibble fed it is impractical lol.

If he is raw fed and piece by piece is an option, I suggest it so that he can begin to see you as a provider, not as someone that might take his meal. A lot of dogs that are not aggressive or dominant in any other situation that show food aggression are resource guarding, they act like they have not eaten in months, and that they are not likely to get to eat ever again.

I am sure people with more experience with resource guarding will chip in here, and if you search for resource guarding will probably bring up some good previous threads on the subject. I have limited experience with a dog that was only defensively nervous, resource guarding - most of my issues with food aggression has been from dominant dogs. So don't take my word as law here :laugh:

A note about alphas and food.. it is true that the alpha will not take food from a lower ranking member after it has eaten. An alpha will take food from a lower ranking member if it is something valuable that the alpha had not come across yet. Generally the alphas eat first, period, but in certain circumstances a lower ranking member, a beta, may come across a scrap or small road kill etc and upon bringing it back to the pack the alpha can and will (if it wants) take it.

The reason that the different ranks eat at different times.. alphas first, betas somewhat scuffling on a second serve basis, and omega last, etc is that eat animal eats certain parts that gives it the correct scent for it's possition in the pack. The alphas eat most if not all of the organ meat, which gives the alpha pair the darkest color and strongest, most distinct scent. The betas fight and scuffle over the remaining parts after the alphas because they regularly change what they eat to change their scent, which when the pack marks, makes it seem like there are more members in the pack (to any rivals or loners that come around) even the omega is designated certain parts and even though eats last is left good stuff because they are an important part of the pack.

Not sure anybody wanted to know that, :laugh:

I find it all very cool Jennifer. In that short little lesson of pack dynamics I found one of the more memoriable personal experieces with dogs. And your well of knowledge has helped put it in perspective.
Now I've got my nose working on the scent for the books you reference on your web site. Unless you can recommend something better of course.

Dear Abby,
Help, my life is going to the dogs.
Scraping by,
Road kill warrior

 Quote: randy allen

I find it all very cool Jennifer. In that short little lesson of pack dynamics I found one of the more memoriable personal experieces with dogs. And your well of knowledge has helped put it in perspective.
Now I've got my nose working on the scent for the books you reference on your web site. Unless you can recommend something better of course.

Dear Abby,
Help, my life is going to the dogs.
Scraping by,
Road kill warrior

:laugh:
Dear Abby
I growl at my dogs, and I accidentaly slipped and growled at my boyfriend. Now he's afraid of me. Help!
The "Crazy Dog Lady"



Ah. I recommend Aggression in Dogs by Brenda Aloff, and her other book Canine Body Language http://www.leerburg.com/984.htm

But I primarily study wolves, and the books listed on my site that I referenced are excellent. You will find that some of the descriptions of the postures in the actual books is different from what I wrote.

Some of that is because the pictures show behavior that could be multiple things and I chose which I wanted to describe, and also because I occassionally disagree on certain nuances of body language as shown in the pictures, based on my experience working hands on with wolves, wolfdogs, and high drive working dogs. Observing is one thing, participating is quite another!

I recommend wolf books as wolves tend to be more subtle, dogs are often more obvious, flamboyant even, in their communication when directly compared to wolves. In the wild, the least amount of energy required to communicate something is the route most often followed. Dogs don't need to conserve as much energy, and dogs regularly NEED to be overly obvious in order to properly communicate with most humans. That doesn't mean they always will, of course.

Anyhow. Sorry to be OT! The two books I would really recommend as a photographic guide to behavior and body language are The Art of Being a Wolf by Anne Menatory and Spirit of the Wolf by Shaun Ellis/Monty Sloan, though the others are very informative as well.

I have never taken food from him and I am very clear on how Ed describes the pack eating order. I always trade and he’s really good about this with is stuffed animals. He outs good and is only aggressive around food, including bones and rawhides.
I make him do stuff for his food always- in fact I used to never feed him out of a bowl. He had to work entirely to get fed. No work, no food. So we did OB every meal- that was when I had more time and was training for mondioring. Now we spend 5 minutes on OB before a meal due to my busy schedule.

He is used to eating from my hands from when I used to hand feed him as a 3-6 month old to combat food guarding. I would even place food into his bowl and never take it our and then allow him to eat some from my hands too.
A couple times he growled and snapped like this when he was 3-6 months. I grabbed him and pulled him away but he would continue vocalizing but never bit.

It is just recently that he started not wanting to eat it out of my hands and getting aggressive again. There is nothing that has changed other than he began marking territory and I have a Pomeranian in heat. He knows this and she flirts with him. But other than the occasional walk together, they have been separated for good and she is not allowed to be near him (she’s always inside, he’s always outside).

After Thanksgiving, he snatched a turkey bone that fell out of the trash and I had to chase his in the yard to get it from him. I finally caught him and got it out (afraid of the bones splintering) of his mouth and then fed him some food asap after to reward- but I bet this probably really set him off. He was resistant but did let me take it out of his mouth. Could something like this make him resort back to food aggression? This is the only thing I can think of that would have a connection…something tells me it is.

It’s hard to read his tail language because he has a broken tail. There’s a 3-4in kink at the tip and then a hardened cartilage, numb area about 5-6 more inches down. So his tail looks like a husky tail and curls up over his back. He doesn’t seem to feel much or atleast have any control over it except for the base + a couple inches where he can wag and raise. But if raised when excited, alert, wagging, etc. it all looks the same. He hardly ever holds it down unless he’s on the move.

His eyes and ears do most of the talking. His head position too. He holds his head away and looks out of the corner of his eyes or even out the top of his eye lids if direct. He lowers his head slightly and stiffness his neck and corners of his mouth. No teeth baring. His ears tilt slightly back, but erect and stiff. The ear towards me is leaned my way. He usually stops panting and closes his mouth, but not completely. Then he growls and moves his mouth quickly towards me. The growl and movement is instant and quick- like a fear biter but the body language doesn’t show what I would call nervousness. (No licking of lips, not low tail.) No snapping noises, no teeth bared, and then he immediately goes back to what he’s doing. He may place his ears flat and wag his tail low and quick afterwards and eat his food.

I haven’t noticed any hair standing though he used to raise hackles all the time when he was a pup and excited to be out. He also raises all the hair on his back and gets very aggressive looking when the neighbors leave in their car and he paces the wood fence and sounds like he’s trying to kill someone. He absolutely ignores me and will dodge me to fence fight with the car. I can’t catch him.

If I correct him, then he gets in a down position and acts somewhat confused. But not defensive or fearful-yet not overly submissive either. His body language is not apologetic but rather like he doesn’t know why he got in trouble. As soon as I move on or walk, then he’s back to normal wagging happy dog trying to jump on me and play bite. (these are two behaviors he seems to never quit doing unless I constantly nag at him.)

His submissive body look is completely different. He looks me in the face, pants and opens his mouth, lays his ears flat and wags his tail quickly while scooting around in an army crawl or in a sitting position.

Tonight I brushed him and he liked it, I guess. He just wrestled and tried to climb on top of me and bites my arms and hands. I redirect to a toy but he doesn’t want it. He keeps standing and then laying back down on his side and rolling to his back. He’ll lay upside down for about 30 sec. then get up, circle and throw himself back down onto his side and roll on his back.

I placed him in his crate and then brought out his bowl. I opened the door and I asked him to “wait” and set it down. He started that weird look again. Then closed the door and released him to eat.

He has never been aggressive to anyone outright but has growled and snapped like this at some children that were crowding him at a park. He kept inching closer to me to take action to protect him and I did, but the darn little kids kept reaching past my hands to try to touch him. So he vocalized and moved his mouth towards them. Then he hid in my arms and was obviously pressured and stressed about the close contact. I do believe this was fear and I was actually shocked that he would react like this. It’s like he liked the kids on minute, but had enough the next minute.

He also vocalizes when he’s picked up or physically restrained, especially when he’s excited or in drives. I accidentally lost my balance once and fell on him slightly for balance and he growled and turned his mouth my way. He is vocal with high pitched yips and growls normally but the deep, stiff growls are when he’s upset or seemingly annoyed.

Do you think that his puberty has an issue to play in this?
Do you think sexual frustration from the pomeranian in heat has an issue to play?

Did me taking the turkey bone send him into a defensive position for his food again?
Should I go back to step one and feed out of my hand and rehabilitate the idea that my hands give food, not take food?