i have a question about something that happened while we were away over xmas.

we rented a cabin on a resort - the owners were also there, he is a former cop from london (uk) and has two GSDs, both i understand are washouts from a PSD breeding program - the female b/c she was too small, i'm not sure about the male (who is 110lbs apparently).

on xmas eve, we were walking back along the road (my mom, me, and luc and teagan). my mom was walking teagan as luc had been pulling a lot and bothering her, teagan was being really behaved and my mom wanted to try walking her.

all of a sudden we heard barking and looked up - the owner was out w/both of his dogs, off-leash, and they took off for us. since i was worried about how my mom would handle teagan, i grabbed her quickly and had both dogs.

the GSDs came in quickly and were very aggressive - what can i say, two PSD washouts act a lot differently than the labs we normally have problems with. my mother was terrified.

i yelled NO! and as they headed initially for teagan, did my best to block, including kicking, but i was kicking more to remove than to take the dog out - and i did that b/c - obviously naive of me, but i couldn't believe that a cop (former) would just stand there and watch his dogs attack and not even try to call them off.

but he didn't. he did just stand there and watch them attack, never once called them, nothing.

the dogs than moved towards luc. and i'll be honest, i find it hard to defend my dogs (on either side of me) against two dogs circling. i did block as best i could, but luc slipped his collar (which he's never done) and ran off. both dogs chased him, i managed to stop one and after i screamed 'my dog is scared of other dogs, get your dog!' at the owner - who was watching his dogs chase luc - he sort of woke up.

i ran with teagan down the road to look for luc, than gave her to my mom and went on to look for luc myself. there's a couple of rivers around there plus the road and i was really worried. i watched tracks from our previous walk and when i knew he hadn't gone past that point turned around.

the owner and my mom had found luc, under a trailer/caravan. luc was happy to see me (he wagged his tail) and came out fine and walked fine.

at some point while my mom had her, teagan actually broke her prong - that has never happened. she stayed w/my mom though. after i'd gotten luc, the owner went around (my mom and teagan were on the other side) and told my mom that he would take teagan - i don't know why, like he thought he was better at handling dogs than my mom? BS. anyways, i didn't know this at the time, but teagan lunged and snapped at him. (i found out 1/2 hour later, and since she couldn't make the connection at that point, i praised her and gave her a treat for going for him)

as we were walking back, i said to the owner 'what are doing walking dog aggressive (i think territoriality was also an issue here) dogs off-leash, with no recall, when YOU KNOW there are other dogs around?' he said 'that's a good point' - what a dumb mofo.

THAN HE TOLD ME that it was MY FAULT b/c i yelled no and moved around trying to block his dogs and that made it worse.

EXCUSE ME? this is what i want opinions on. WHAT THE HELL ELSE WAS I SUPPOSE TO DO, stand there and watch his dogs attack mine, make no mistake, that's what they were there to do. i had no choice, b/c he made no effort to stop the attack.

i was so angry. what a stupid a-hole, seriously, i hope that man rots in hell like the piece of scum he is.

he NEVER apologized to me. i was concerned he didn't get how seriously he felt this was, since THEN he says to me that the 'important thing is i got my dog back' - excuse me - my DOGS should not have had to experience that, it's traumatic for luc (he's fine, obviously i didn't make a fuss or coddle him) - yeah, maybe if you can't step up and take responsibility you'd say that was the important thing, but eff you.

i feel my mistake was not trying to take his dogs out. i assumed someone who was a cop would maybe be more aware of the consequences of irresponsibility and not act like he did.

so, to ensure our positions were clear and he understood that his dogs had better not be anywhere near mine, i explained to him that normally i would've been a lot more aggressive but had expected him to intercede, but next time - i'll break his dogs' ribs.
(my mother said i shouldn't have threatened him, but technically, i threatened his dogs)
he then told me he'd have me charged w/animal cruelty, which is BS, and i said 'i'm going to protect my dogs' and also told him it was very offensive that he would blame me for trying to stop the attack when he didn't do shit.

so the rest of the time up there we either drove the dogs away to walk/go to the washroom, or took them next to the car (teagan is really picky) and had everyone out.

seriously - i'd always understood you were supposed to yell no! at the dogs, and i'm not going to stand to the side while my dog gets attacked - was i wrong for trying to block his dogs?

the whole thing upset me hugely, and i'm incredibly angry. FURIOUS. i'm thinking to look up if they're members in any tourism associations, stuff like that, and then writing some letters.

on the bright side, it looks about 95% that i'll be moving to a bungalow w/a yard! it's way bigger, so tonnes of space for the dogs, on a few steps in and out of the house for teagan. i really hope it goes through!

Jennifer,

I've got a few thoughts about this 'ex-cop' - most of which I can't say on a public forum as I'll get Moderated!

He from what you said he sounds like a 'wannabe' dog handler who failed miserably. GSD washed out because it was too small? Sounds BS to me....

I'll PM you. But I think you coped admirably.

Rob

Jennifer,

First of all, I think you handled it pretty well. I believe there comes a time when, if you're handling a dog that you know has problems, you have to decide how you will react to ALL inbound dogs. For me, that decision is pretty brutal. If a dog is coming at one of your nervy dogs and it's coming "Rudely" and doesn't stop when you tell it to (with your body AND your voice) I don't care if the owner is two steps behind the dog, if it's gotten in spitting range and it's not leashed, it's getting a boot to the jaw.

We are dog lovers, but our first responsibility is to our own dogs. Dogs that are not in our pack are as trustworthy as strangers. If a stranger came up to my wife and got all "touchy feely" I'd have a huge problem with it, and I'd take whatever steps necessary to stop them.

It sounds like the only mistake you made was giving this guy too much credit.

These dogs were washouts because of breeding, or they failed in the training program? Unless his GSD was under 50 pounds, it wasn't size that washed her out. It was probably temperament or nerves. I can see how you might think you need a 75 pound dog to do "Serious" police work, if you're an inexperienced handler. But that perception changes the first time you see a Malinois bring down a 200# helper.

It doesn't even need to be said, but...obviously this guy was an idiot. That's ok. Lots of them out there. How we react to their dogs is what matters, we don't have to deal with them. Eliminate the potential for their dogs to harm your dogs, and if they try to bring the police into it, just remember this phrase: "I feared for my life."

You might consider walking Teagan and Luc seperatley. It seems like a lot of the trouble you get into comes when you try to manage two dogs. I don't walk both dogs at once because it's more than I can handle, and my dogs aren't really aggressive or nervy like Luc and Teagan. Well...Macy snaps at dogs if they're rude. She doesn't really appreciate pushy dogs, she'll say hello, give a sniff, then move away. If they pester her she warns them off. But she's not aggressive.

thanks both of you. it makes me feel a lot better. i don't know why this guy got under my skin so much, but he did.

david - normally i do take out dogs that are coming at mine, bottom line, they stay away from my dogs. last dog that came at us was lying in the snow when it's owners got there. it really was i just thought - i know it's dumb, but i really thought cop would equal someone who would step in.

i kinda thought the female was big enough too. they told my mom all this when she was booking the cabin, but yeah - i really wondered after the incident.

discussing it w/my mom, maybe it would've been better to leave teagan with her, as it would've been one dog/handler - b/c i do get what you're saying - but my mom doesn't have experience really warding off dogs like that, and she doesn't have experience of teagan's aggressive reactions. normally at home i do a mix of walks together and separately, but you know....it was supposed to be nice walk with family.

I don't think there's much YOU could have done in this specific situation to improve the outcome. The only thing that comes to mind is that a "Ranged" weapon might help protect multiple dogs from multiple dogs. If you have bear mace, or something you can spray at them as they approach, you don't have to worry about getting your kicks in.

Crappy situation, though. I'm sorry you had to go through it.

 Quote: david eagle

I don't think there's much YOU could have done in this specific situation to improve the outcome. The only thing that comes to mind is that a "Ranged" weapon might help protect multiple dogs from multiple dogs. If you have bear mace, or something you can spray at them as they approach, you don't have to worry about getting your kicks in.

Crappy situation, though. I'm sorry you had to go through it.

Good idea - it would have been a shame if the owner got a faceful too

you know, i've avoided doing that b/c as someone once pointed out, if i used it in the city, the cops or animal control might wonder why i was wondering around w/bear mace in downtown toronto (as i believe regular mace is illegal).

but - i've had dogs 'pack up' 3 times now - twice i was just with luc. but two of those incidents were either hiking or in a rural area....aka an area where carrying bear mace would be more reasonable. i'm not going hiking w/out again.


rob....heh!
(my mother was horrified i gave teagan a treat for going after him - but it was well after the fact, teagan wasn't making any connection there! i think she did a good job of identifying the other side, so to speak)

 Quote: jennifer mullen

it really was i just thought - i know it's dumb, but i really thought cop would equal someone who would step in.

Jennifer, I'm really sorry to hear about this - I know how hard it is to control ONE dog when confronted with such a situation, but trying to contain TWO while ALSO beating off 2 intently aggressive big dogs must have been incredibly stressful and scary. And in regards to the above quote - "ex cop" or not, a RESPONSIBLE and INTELLIGENT human being - of any kind - SHOULD have stepped right up when he saw his loose dogs going after others. I'm speachless that this man said and did NOTHING... sounds like a total a$$ to me.

I'm in agreement with David though that you should probably try to avoid walking both Luc and Teagan together for a while (leaving you with no free hands, and possibly too much unpredictable dog power at the end of the leash should a "situation" arise). There may be a point where one or both dogs can be trained to sit or down stay while you drop the lead and can reach into your pocket for a can of dog mace, a tazer, or some other strong deterrent, but each and every situation has the potential to get out of control - fast, so I'd give myself the upper hand and try to limit the variables every time I went for a walk.

 Quote: jennifer mullen

discussing it w/my mom, maybe it would've been better to leave teagan with her, as it would've been one dog/handler - b/c i do get what you're saying - but my mom doesn't have experience really warding off dogs like that, and she doesn't have experience of teagan's aggressive reactions. normally at home i do a mix of walks together and separately, but you know....it was supposed to be nice walk with family.

Imagine what would have happened if your mom had lost control of Teagan and she went in for the kill with one of those GSDs... how awful if you had had to break up a bad dog fight ON TOP of all of what already happened! And you KNOW the owner of those GSDs wouldn't have been any help with THAT. I think you made the right decision in taking the lead from your mom, but in essence, having your inexperienced mom walking one of your dogs is equal to YOU walking both if you have to take both leads in an emergency... which is what just happened.

Again, my sympathies, and total support - and don't feel bad about getting so upset, those adrenaline rushes have a purpose - too bad this guy is apparently so thick even some loud and vivid common sense didn't phase him!

~Natalya

 Quote: Rob Bruce

Good idea - it would have been a shame if the owner got a faceful too

Indeed - maybe THAT would have snapped him out of his obvious stupidity coma!

~Natalya

thanks

well, and it's also hard handling both dogs, b/c teagan has a 'lemme at 'em!!!!' approach, and luc has a 'AUGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!' reaction. they're polar opposites.

yech. i spent a wee bit of christmas eve crying, but the dogs do seem to be doing okay. luc was fine but quiet that night, and teagan was okay.

i also really hate that it's luc who gets picked on. luc's done so well gaining confidence and he just doesn't deserve it. i know the dogs don't care about any of that, but it upsets me. apparently when my mom and the owner were at the trailer luc was under, he asked her 'is this the one that was in a shelter for three years?' and my mother said 'yes' (i'm not sure how nice her tone was). all he could say was a small 'oh'.

....outside of this, i was actually very proud of both dogs, but especially teagan, this trip. she was in seventh heaven ('more people who could be petting me!') and while there was an incident on the first day (i was in the washroom at the time) - she got out of the cabin, my brother was getting something out of the car - i don't know if i've ever mentioned that teagan LOVES cars - like, she gets so excited she tries to get into the trunk loves cars - and she tried to get in, he grabbed her collar (the handle) and she turned around and he says more mouthed him than anything, but he had a cut - he said it might have occurred b/c when she mouthed him he then tossed her against the car, so he wasn't sure how it happened.
obviously, regardless, not okay - my brother was worried i'd be upset her tossed her against the car - she does that to you, i don't have a problem w/that. anyways, she was very respectful towards him the rest of the trip, and i was very watchful of her behaviour, she did very well otherwise (though she tried to beg at the table! what a mooch!).