Hi all, first post, and its a long one! Sorry

So my 30-month old male GSD, Link, has developed an odd bad habit... he is absolutely obsessed with digging up rocks in my back yard and carrying them around in his mouth. He doesn't eat them, and he really doesn't gnaw on them, but the act of caring around the biggest heaviest rocks he can find worries me a lot. Its almost like they are his prize, and hes a bit defensive of them (not aggressive, but he avoids me when he has one and shows pray drive when I try to take it). Too bad I can't harness this for his bite work All he does is strut around with them for a bit, then lay down and lick them.... weirdo

This was not always a problem. In my previous house, there were some VERY large rocks and pieces of broken concrete in the yard. One day, he started keeping himself busy by hiking them between his hind legs with his front paws and rolling them around, but he never tried putting them in his mouth (WAY to big). it looked like he was doing the pray drive work I've been doing on his own. It was good entertainment, and great exercise for him, so I didn't see any harm at the time. I did notice that the drive he had to roll these things around and chase after them was WAY too high, compared to his pray drive while drilling. I'd say he might have been a bit manic. I didn't realize that he would carry his obsession over to other rocks in other situations.

Anyway, we since moved to a new house, with a lot of smaller rocks. He immediately started carrying them around, so every time he would pick one up, I'd get it off him and throw it over the fence. I simply can't keep up. I throw one, and he digs up another one in a few minutes. This has been going on for months now.

I've also noticed his bite work has softened. After a good pull, he loses drive and lets go while gumming his mouth a bit. Its pretty easy to bring his drive back up after a few seconds, but still... I had his teeth inspected by our vet, who confirmed that the enamel on the back of some of his canines is worn a bit, but not too bad. Either way, it might cause a bit of tenderness and continued wear could requires either an extraction (of a canine in a worker! no way!) or a root canal (yikes $$).

So my obvious question is: How can I stop this? I do own an electric collar that I hardly ever use, but I figured a low setting might be enough for him to associate the rocks with a zap. I'm yet to get Ed's electric collar training video, but its on my short list. Is this a good intended use? Any other methods? The problem is that when I approach him to offer a correction, he becomes evasive AND tries running off with a rock in his mouth. He ignores my verbal commands that he knows while in rock-manic-mode. By the time I get the rock and throw it away, I'm afraid he doesn't realize what the correction is for. He's also quite a hard dog, and doesn't seem to remember or care about the correct next chance he gets.

One obvious solution: don't let him free in the yard. For me, that not ideal and really doesn't get to the root of the problem, just bypasses it to care for the symptom (teeth problems)

I'd like to channel the drive and motivation from the rocks to something more productive. I tried putting other toys like small ribber tires and larger balls around the yard. He could easily pick those up and carry them/throw them, but doesn't show much interest when rocks are around. I think the act of finding and digging is part of his satisfaction.

Another variable: I just got a new pup (another GSD, a female). Shes about 10 weeks now and LOVES trying to get my adult to play with her. He takes to it pretty well (albeit a bit rough some time), especially in the yard. I think that might be a good alternative outlet if I could just figure out how to get him to stop focusing on these rocks. They play well, until he finds a new rock to dig up...

Sorry for the wall of text, but where should I start?

Thanks!
Jason

i know we all have different or mixed views on Cesar Milan, btu i do remember him doing one of his shows on a dog that carried around rocks....that might be worth watching, if at least to know what you don't want to do, though by the end of the show, the dog stopped.

at least yours doesn't eat them. Roxie is named Roxie because the rescue group that took her found tons of rocks in her stomach......now that she has food and care, i have never seen her eat rocks.

 Quote: Jason Lash

So my 30-month old male GSD, Link, has developed an odd bad habit... he is absolutely obsessed with digging up rocks in my back yard and carrying them around in his mouth. He doesn't eat them, and he really doesn't gnaw on them

if it helps, i used to do this as a child....and look how well i turned out!

could you bait some rocks with some pepper paste (someone posted about it on the fence chewing thread in general) - a few really hot rocks might turn him off rocks in general.

 Quote: mallory kwiatkowski

i know we all have different or mixed views on Cesar Milan, btu i do remember him doing one of his shows on a dog that carried around rocks....that might be worth watching, if at least to know what you don't want to do, though by the end of the show, the dog stopped.

at least yours doesn't eat them. Roxie is named Roxie because the rescue group that took her found tons of rocks in her stomach......now that she has food and care, i have never seen her eat rocks.

Ah, found it! I assume this is it:

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I've been doing this.. essentially, when I get a rock off him, I make him perform his obedience exercises while I toy with the rock. He will do a down+stay, but hes very anxious and breaks it some times, usually when I go to pick up the rock to dispose of it... then he goes back into pray drive exercise mode.

I guess the bigger picture is the separation between drive and obedience. I think I really need to merge the two before I can get him much farther. All in all, this works at the time, but when I stop watching, he gets back in to trouble. And still, when he does get one, he avoids me til I can run him down and repeat the entire process. To use a horribly timed pun, it feels like i'm chasing my own tail.



Edited by Jason Lash (01/16/2008 02:20 PM)
Edit reason: added quote for clarity

yep, that was the episode.

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

if it helps, i used to do this as a child....and look how well i turned out!

could you bait some rocks with some pepper paste (someone posted about it on the fence chewing thread in general) - a few really hot rocks might turn him off rocks in general.

Hmm, I'll give this a shot. I never did any of the type of work, but a trainer I used to work with would add hot sauce to hot dog pieces and have strangers feed them to some service dogs he was training. The dogs learned not to take food from strangers. He then did the same with any food not in the dogs bowl, til the dog would only eat from his bowl. Sort of the same concept.

Either way, I'll give it a shot. I'd be interested in seeing if hes smart enough to key off the pepper smell after the first few tries

I would be keeping him out of the rocky area right now, no matter what the long-term plan is. It sounds like it's turning into a compulsion, and the less of a habit it is to fix, the better.

QUOTE: One obvious solution: don't let him free in the yard. For me, that not ideal and really doesn't get to the root of the problem, just bypasses it to care for the symptom END

But: When he is in the yard and you are not working with him, isn't he reinforcing the habit over and over? I wouldn't want that. JMO.

 Quote: Jason Lash

All he does is strut around with them for a bit, then lay down and lick them.... weirdo

That comment made me laugh; especially the weirdo part.

In reading your post, it sounds like your dog likes to be challenged and like any other good GSD figures out how to do that, often not to our liking. This is tricky because it sounds like you work your dog and have a good understanding of what he needs to be fulfilled. I'll be interested in reading what others have to say about his behavior.

He could probably use more pack structure, since he doesn't readily give up the rocks, and a solid leave it/drop it would be helpful.

Is he food motivated? I've done this with dogs who like to landscape in the flower bed, it might work to distract your dog from the rocks. Get or make a sandbox (sand is much easier to hide things in for him to dig up). Hide some tasty treats, easy at first; then smaller and less of them to make it more difficult to find. To make the consistancy of the sand a little more challenging to dig; spray it with water after you have hidden the items (not necessarily food if he prefers some chewable toys) Also, I would purchase sand which has been sanitized for children, just to be on the safe side if he ingests some.

One word of warning; though you seem to have a handle on it, I'd be wary of allowing him to play with the pup off leash in the yard in case he decides she is a threat to his rock collection...

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

I would be keeping him out of the rocky area right now, no matter what the long-term plan is. It sounds like it's turning into a compulsion, and the less of a habit it is to fix, the better.

QUOTE: One obvious solution: don't let him free in the yard. For me, that not ideal and really doesn't get to the root of the problem, just bypasses it to care for the symptom END

But: When he is in the yard and you are not working with him, isn't he reinforcing the habit over and over? I wouldn't want that. JMO.

I knew that part would come back to bite me The reason I say its not ideal is because my yard isn't to huge and the fenced in part where I leave him off-leash has rocks pretty much throughout. My only other choice is to take him elsewhere, and the only other place near me is our local dog park. Needless to say, even if I do this every chance I get, hes going to be couped up in the house most days less his on-leash walk & play time. I work long hours and the other occupant of my house really isn't motivated enough (yet) to do much more than walk the dog around the block a couple times or let him in the yard.

An interesting point though, is that when we do go to the dog park (about 2-3 acres, wooded, and fenced in with trails and LOTS of rocks), he never seems to even notice the rocks. He's too distracted trying to get the smallest dog possible to chase him I've been trying to key off this with distractions, but no luck yet. The best thing has been his large tug, but its hit or miss and it the method I used almost motivated him to find more rocks any time he wants to play for the tug. Its like I'm rewarding him for finding rocks

Thats why I mentioned the pup as an alternative outlet, but I should have emphasized that goal won't be looked in to til shes old enough. Now when they play, I'm always within a feet and he minds me the whole time. I sound like a broken record saying 'easy!' over and over.

 Quote: Sheila Buckley

He could probably use more pack structure, since he doesn't readily give up the rocks, and a solid leave it/drop it would be helpful.

Yea, I was wondering about this, and its another difficulty for me. I know about the concept behind the single person dog, and I get the feeling that a lot of the training advice I hear is geared towards that. Unfortunately, thats not my dog My girl friend is 1/2 owner and she likes to spoil. So a lot of the obedience and I try to do gets VERY ambiguous when I disallow something she promotes when I'm not watching (lying on furniture, going through doors first, getting a food reward when a correction would be more appropriate).

This is clearly not helping my pack structure Some times I'm not sure if hes trying to get me to play, or challenging me. But theres no doubt he thinks his position in the pack is above her.

Lucky, I'm getting her to come around to my 'methods', especially now that she can see the side effects now of the things I've been saying that she's been ignoring. I even got her reading some articles and listening to a few Ebooks here. I still have to force her to sit though parts the 'Your Puppy 8 weeks to 8 months' DVD, but its an improvement. I think things will be more smooth with the pup, but undoing the damage is harder than starting off correctly.

 Quote: Sheila Buckley

Is he food motivated? I've done this with dogs who like to landscape in the flower bed, it might work to distract your dog from the rocks. Get or make a sandbox (sand is much easier to hide things in for him to dig up). Hide some tasty treats, easy at first; then smaller and less of them to make it more difficult to find. To make the consistancy of the sand a little more challenging to dig; spray it with water after you have hidden the items (not necessarily food if he prefers some chewable toys) Also, I would purchase sand which has been sanitized for children, just to be on the safe side if he ingests some.

Is the point of this just another way to keep him occupied while outside that would be more interesting than finding rocks? It sounds like a similar idea I had.

I never started any tracking work, but he almost seems to be tracking the rocks. What you described is similar, but confined to a sandbox. This is going to sound gross, but I've noticed that sometimes he'll drop a rock and pee on it, then he hides it a bush or something. Makes me think twice about picking them up to throw away The next time I let him out, he tracks to all his marked spots until he can find where he left the 'marked' rock. My yard is too small now, but in about 2 months, I'll be moving to a house with a much larger wooded yard. I was excited about using it to start tracking, and this might be a good distraction and it might even be the reason he finds rocks so rewarding.

He started playing with them to simulate play drive (throw it with his paws, then run it down and pounce.) Some times, he would cut up the pads of his feet a bit, or roll a large rock over his back foot/leg and limp for a few days, so I started removing the large rocks to avoid injury. Then, he had to find new ones. I never did any formal tracking, but by making him have to find rocks to satisfy that desire, could I have sort of... not sure how to even explain this.... did the satisfaction of pouncing on rocks like pray get transfered to the satisfaction of tracking and finding rocks to play with? Or am I reaching a little too far now


Edited by Jason Lash (01/16/2008 03:30 PM)
Edit reason: typo

Quote: essentially, when I get a rock off him, I make him perform his obedience exercises while I toy with the rock. He will do a down+stay, but hes very anxious and breaks it some times, usually when I go to pick up the rock to dispose of it... then he goes back into pray drive exercise mode.
End Quote

Ok a few things stand out to me in this. He ignores you and runs away from you when he has the rocks. To me, your approach of trying to use CMs methods was likely the cause of his avoidance of you. I do not recommend CMs methods to people because I can almost guarantee they are going to do something wrong. I can see this spilling over into the bite work, he thinks you are just trying to claim everything and is doing what he thinks you want by giving up the prey item.

Try using the tug/bite equipment as his reward for redirecting off of the rocks. I would keep him on a lead. Every time he ignores you erodes your work with him. Having him on a lead/long line prevents him from running away/refusing a recall etc and you can control him. Don't tease him with the rocks, this is not showing him anything aside from the fact that if you catch him you are going to take his prize and taunt him with it which causes him to want to avoid you and increases his frustration.

Also, for the sake of the pup I would keep them seperate most of the time if not all the time to prevent doggyness. Is she a working prospect? Also, what are your goals with your male? Is the bite work for exercise/stimulation or is he a sport dog, etc?

He sounds like he needs an outlet for energy that he is not getting, aside from the rocks is there anything else he goes nuts for?

The peeing on the rocks is claiming them as his. The behaviors you describe of finding, searching for, hiding, marking of rocks is sounding obsessive, he is really bored.