In my reading I have often come accross the statement that this or that syndrom or disease is most common in shepherds. It looks like the digestive system of the shepherd in general is a shambles.
Healthwise, would it be useful to oucrop the shepherd? not to another pure bred but say, an exsisting "type" of sheepherding dog that may still be working in rural areas of Europe, assuming the dog had a similar purpose and temperment?
Im pretty sure that this has been done in horses with good results though it was usually fought tooth and nail because it interfered with the stud books.
I have heard that this wouldnt be good, that there is enough derivation in bloodlines already within the shepherd, but am not convinced, yet :wink:.

My answer - AHHHH! NO

why not?

 Quote: Mary Roach

”why not?”

Not speaking for Sandy, mind you...

Because for one thing, Mary, what may be suitable practice in horse breeding (thoroughbreds or otherwise) cannot (and perhaps, should not) be equated to dogs -- educated speculation, as I’m no horse expert. Nonetheless equines and canids are two distinct species, domesticated and trained for contradictory purposes.

Moreover in the years I and my family have been handling GSDs (more than a few), I have rarely (in the extreme) actually come across problematic issues such as, but not exclusive to, digestive problems. Now perhaps I’m lucky, or the breeders I’ve associated with were of quality. I tend to think it was more the latter.

Aside from show breeders, working lines are (generally speaking) bred for specific traits that enhance the work. These are the primary factors in genetic matching, not mitigation of health concerns that may or may not materialize in the prodigy. Once a solid line is established (shown over time to produce healthy off-spring), such health issue are (IMO) a lesser consideration.

Personally I happen to believe that many of the health related problems, often associated with GSDs. Were brought about by some American show breeders shooting for conformation, over performance (mixing and matching genetic cocktails for “look” over substance). Again (for the sake of full disclosure), speculative on my part as I’ve no immediate concrete evidence to support the contention. Thus if others have a differing view, I’m all ears.

so, the problem isnt as widespread as we're led to believe? I mean, is it only in show line dogs then? would there still be no benefit to new strains? Im not trying to be contentions, reallly :laugh: Im just interested in it.
Oh , and Im no geneticist! I know that

 Quote: Mary Roach

”so, the problem isnt as widespread as we're led to believe? I mean, is it only in show line dogs then?”

Mary:
I (personally speaking) cannot be certain as to the “widespread” nature of the issues, because for one thing my sphere of influence has been primarily working-line breeders. For another I believe in order to truly, factually (conclusively), make the claim that such problems are ONLY limited to show lines? One would have to rely upon a biological study, and I know of none (maybe others do). Thus; why I prefaced my comments as speculative based on antidotal evidence.

 Quote: Mary Roach

”would there still be no benefit to new strains? ”

Well, candidly, that goes back to the above and presupposes critical heath issues in breeder bloodlines. If it ain’t broke, why try and fix it? And if it is broke, tampering too much with genetics is itself problematic (this is why scientists are ever cautious about cloning and such). Notwithstanding, I too am no geneticist so we’re getting into areas of which I am not wholly qualified.

(BTW: I’ve not perceived your posts as being necessarily, “contentious.” )

In my limited understanding and based on the research I have done working lines will almost always be in better health than show lines.

A working dog is most likely to be bred based on the dogs ability to perfom the job it has been given, this generally requires sound physical condition as well as a sound mental/emotional capacity along with a higher level of intelligence than a show line dogs. A dog with chronic health problems isnt going to be successful in a demanding job and isnt going to be bred just because he is pretty or confirms to the extreme of the breed standard that happens to be enVogue at the time.

I dont have much experience with working line Gsd's. Do they have those common problems (EPI? I think) and bloat etc?
anyone know?

P.S. im not trying to contend with what you said, I just realized that I dont know if they even have had those issues. I always had the idea that they were as hearty as wolves...

 Quote: Mary Roach

... would there still be no benefit to new strains?

To manufacture new strains of the GSD is to eliminate the GSD. I cannot tell you how horrible that sounds to me.

People have already screwed with the breed enough as Mark was mentioning and as has been mentioned numerous times in this forum. It's a miracle we still have good dogs out there. To create a new strain is not acceptable.

I'd rather rely on good breeders who ABSOLUTELY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING, and take into consideration genetics and all other factors of what make this most wonderful breed what it is and what it always has been.

Mary, it's not just a question (IMO) of showline vs. workingline. But I'll get to that in a minute...

First of all, I believe that breeding and showing a dog only for what is deemed attractive at the time is a bad idea for the reasons everyone has already posted.

And breeding for physical characteristics is not the same thing as breeding for physical soundness. Form should follow function...if function followed form then the most many of these show dogs could do is just trot around the ring.

But as far as the information you're getting on the illnesses inherent in the GSD as a breed: Keep in mind that most of the books on GSDs you will see in the bookstores or petstores will be about the American Showline breed exclusively. Occassionally one of them will mention in passing that there is a workingline GSD, but usually it's only a paragraph.

Spending time on this board will make you forget that when you say "German shepherd" to your average American...the image that will pop in their mind is of the classic American showline GSD. In fact, people who see workingline dogs (especially the sables) will often think the dog is a mix of some kind...often of a wolf!
It's really difficult to even find a sticker or calendar of the GSD without the roached back and flat hocks and w/o the classic black saddle.

So, the majority of the info is on American showlines. I don't personally know the incidence of these health issues in workingline vs. showline GSDs here in the US...mostly because when a dog is diagnosed with any disease or illness here, they are listed as "GSDs" with no distinction made to their lineage. However, since breeding is a whole different animal in Germany, for example, I'm sure you could find some good data there about the health issues of workinglines. (You may need Babelfish to read it, though! ) It would be intersting to see the differences not just between working-line vs. showline--but also a comparison between GERMAN showline and American showline as well.

It has been my personal experience that those issues are much less common with the workinglines. Even bloat. Again, that's just my personal observation...nothing scientific.

But finally, remember that in the US...the American showline GSDs are very popular as pets. You never see workingline GSD pups at the mall pet stores, for example. Just American showline.

Therefore, they are going to be victims of the BYBs and puppymills just like Golden Retrievers, for example. It's very true that the more popular a breed is, the more bad breeding happens and the more health and temperament issues that come up as a result.

So, to answer your question with my opinion...I don't think the GSD breed needs any outcropping. It needs LESS mucking around! It needs responsible, educated breeders that breed for health and temperament and function first and looks only when those three are demonstrated.