Queston about my Amercan Bulldog Rescue.
#186597 - 03/19/2008 07:48 PM |
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About 3 weeks I was given a 1 year old American Bulldog. She is a great dog. Very good with my kids. But very dog aggressive. I have her on vinyl choker that I use for correction. She is not dominant with me at all. She follows me from room to room, and is rarely more than 10 feet away.
She is great on a leash except when she sees other dogs. She gets super aggressive. Today at the park she even changed some kids who where running at the play ground. I am not sure if that was aggression or play drive.
Background.
(what I think I know)
She is about 1 year old. She was purchased by the original owner to breed with a large male dog. But the male dog was super aggressive towards her. She was locked in a bathroom for 8 hours a day.
Then she was given to a friend of mine when the original owner moved to Texas. The second owner was intent was to breed her with his 120 lbs male. She was kept in an outside kennel and not handled at all.
(What I know I know)
I got the dog when my friend was evicted. I was going to take her to the pound. When I first put her in my pick-up she was so scared. She would not even look at me. But 4 hours later she was quietly sleeping on my lap.
I took the dog home, because I did not want her to be confused with a pit bull and be put to sleep; my intent was to find her a good home.
To make a long story shorter. The dog would not walk on a leash, not walk up stars, not look me in the face, in other words very skittish. I slept on my couch with the dog on a leash for the first 6 days. Now she does all the things with wonderfully.
The dog has made tremendous strides. She is more and more confident every day. She was very afraid of men but seemed to like woman very much. That s changing now. She is building trust.
My question is about how to work with her on dog aggression. She has gotten much better, but her behavior is still not acceptable. Even with stern corrections that lift her off her feet she still charges.
Relevant heath concerns,
She is heat, She is 75 lbs
But we were at the vet the other day and it went great.
Training
Good at sitting and laying down except when dogs or prey are present.
I have Leerburg's basic dog obedience video set.
And on 4/11/08 we start weekly group training.
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Re: Queston about my Amercan Bulldog Rescue.
[Re: Jeff Cambeis ]
#186613 - 03/19/2008 08:37 PM |
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I do not think you should be working in a group with this dog if she is dog aggressive. Dog aggression needs to be worked on as a completely separate issue from any training.
IMO you have not had her long enough for a real trust and bond to develop, sounds like she has a really great start (good for you!) but I think you need a lot more one on one with her and work on her dog aggression outside of a class situation.
Whether this is a strong desire of hers to play or if it is prey drive or territorial or dominance aggression towards other dogs, I would recommend she be evaluated by someone experienced with behavior modification and aggression.
What does her bark sound like? Does she whine or does she growl and snarl? What is her body language like when she sees another dog (tail up? tail down? standing? crouching? ears back?)
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Re: Question about my American Bulldog Rescue.
[Re: Jennifer Marshal ]
#186624 - 03/19/2008 09:01 PM |
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IMO you have not had her long enough for a real trust and bond to develop, sounds like she has a really great start (good for you!) but I think you need a lot more one on one with her and work on her dog aggression outside of a class situation.
I agree about the trust issue. I am taking it slow and easy. She impresses me with her desire to learn. The first time I turned on the vacuum she almost jumped off a second story balcony. Today she sat next to me as I steam cleaned my carpets. I am very proud of her.
Whether this is a strong desire of hers to play or if it is prey drive or territorial or dominance aggression towards other dogs, I would recommend she be evaluated by someone experienced with behavior modification and aggression.
What does her bark sound like? Does she whine or does she growl and snarl? What is her body language like when she sees another dog (tail up? tail down? standing? crouching? ears back?)
About posture:
When she sees another dog she stands at attention. Head up tail back, focused like a laser beam and ready to lunge. Then when the other dog makes a move either away from her or towards her, she growls, barks and lunges. It is like a switch flips on in her head. It has a touch gotten better but not much.
My understanding of pack structure is the the alpha always initiates the fight.
Typical if the breed, she does not bark. The only time she has barked out the presence of another dog was when I went to my neighbors to break up domestic violence.
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Re: Question about my American Bulldog Rescue.
[Re: Jeff Cambeis ]
#186628 - 03/19/2008 09:16 PM |
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Not barking is not typical of the breed I've seen plenty of ABs that bark, it depends on their temperament and drives and traits like any other dog. She is a great looking dog, I like the body suit ABs she has a great head for a female (dog in my sig is an AB)
Not to be rude, please don't take this the wrong way I am not intending to insult you but if your understanding of pack structure is that the alpha always initiates the fight you need to study dog behavior more. Maybe I am misunderstanding your statement, though. Please elaborate if I got it wrong
There is also a difference between a dog interacting with its pack and a dog interacting with strange people and animals. Strange people and animals are not the dogs pack. While rank does come into play regarding territorial and dominance aggression towards other dogs, generally submissive dogs are still quite capable of being dog aggressive. I gave a few examples, there are various causes, reasons, etc for dog aggression and it is up to you as the alpha to deal with it.
By your description I can't tell what type of aggression it is or if it is just play. But to me it does not sound like play, dogs that want to play have a whiny quality/tone to their bark or vocalization. Its an excited frustrated sound, not a frustrated pissed off sound.
Also, the vocalization is not "the switch" - she needs to be corrected/redirected as soon as she locks on visually. That is where the behavior starts.
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Re: Question about my American Bulldog Rescue.
[Re: Jennifer Marshal ]
#186634 - 03/19/2008 09:40 PM |
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Tried to add and spaced out while I was typing my edit.
Any pack member can start a fight, it does not always take aggression to "start" off, though. An alpha may initiate aggression on a rank challenge for example but any pack member is capable of fighting for various reasons including but not limited to defense of territory and pack.
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Re: Question about my American Bulldog Rescue.
[Re: Jennifer Marshal ]
#186638 - 03/19/2008 09:59 PM |
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Not barking is not typical of the breed I've seen plenty of ABs that bark, it depends on their temperament and drives and traits like any other dog. She is a great looking dog, I like the body suit ABs she has a great head for a female (dog in my sig is an AB)
Every thing I have heard and read says American Bullies typically are slow to bark. That does not mean all of the do not bark. Just as females are typically smaller than males. Yes My female is very large, even larger than some males.
Not to be rude, please don't take this the wrong way I am not intending to insult you but if your understanding of pack structure is that the alpha always initiates the fight you need to study dog behavior more. Maybe I
am misunderstanding your statement, though. Please elaborate if I got it wrong
I am a Bio-Chemist by education and trade. If I was an dog behaviorist I would not be here asking questions about my dogs behavior. You point about studying dog behaviors redundant.
There is also a difference between a dog interacting with its pack and a dog interacting with strange people and animals. Strange people and animals are not the dogs pack. While rank does come into play regarding territorial and dominance aggression towards other dogs, generally submissive dogs are still quite capable of being dog aggressive. I gave a few examples, there are various causes, reasons, etc for dog aggression and it is up to you as the alpha to deal with it.
Like I said "my understanding of pack structure". I was taught when the the dog is with the dominant leader or what ever you wish to call it. It should not seek out opportunities to be aggressive. Similar to when a the pack leader s deciding to to allow new male into the pack.
I am not a do guru so I may be wrong but I understand I am not a dog and my dog does not see me as a dog.
By your description I can't tell what type of aggression it is or if it is just play. But to me it does not sound like play, dogs that want to play have a whiny quality/tone to their bark or vocalization. Its an excited frustrated sound, not a frustrated pissed off sound.
I am pretty sure she is being dog aggressive. She went after a 110 lb male. I am wondering if this has to due to male abuse, or that fact that when she was a pup she was abused by a large male, and if that is the case should my approach be altered.
Also, the vocalization is not "the switch" - she needs to be corrected/redirected as soon as she locks on visually. That is where the behavior starts.
OK, that is what I wanted to here. Thank you for that input
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Re: Question about my American Bulldog Rescue.
[Re: Jennifer Marshal ]
#186639 - 03/19/2008 10:02 PM |
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Tried to add and spaced out while I was typing my edit.
Any pack member can start a fight, it does not always take aggression to "start" off, though. An alpha may initiate aggression on a rank challenge for example but any pack member is capable of fighting for various reasons including but not limited to defense of territory and pack.
Thank you for that correction
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Re: Question about my American Bulldog Rescue.
[Re: Jeff Cambeis ]
#186643 - 03/19/2008 10:15 PM |
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Jeff, I apologize. I realize that you are not a dog guru. I should have put a couple of smileys around my comment regarding alphas and fights etc/dog behavior. I did not intend to be insulting and really meant that it would benefit you and anyone else working with a dog to do some research on dog behavior. When dealing with a dog that displays aggression you really need to understand how dogs work and what triggers and behaviors their are to understand how to deal with the problem.
Main thing here is that when working with an aggressive dog you really should be working with person experienced with them and dealing with the behavior.
I cannot in good conscience tell you over the internet how to deal with dog aggression without seeing you and the dog Even if she is very calm and good at home, outside the house and yard is a different world and dogs can easily redirect aggression to the handler.
I also was not trying to say your dog needs to view people as dogs etc, what I meant was that the human and other animal and dog pack that a dog is used to (its pack) is different from any other human and any other dog and any other animal of the same or different species. Strange is strange, the pack is the pack. How a dog reacts to its pack members is not how it is going to act and react to strangers.
Regarding ABs, I am a huge AB fan. Love the breed, been around them for years, done lots of research and had a male that was stolen from me last year(dog in sig pics) For Johnson dogs, they tend to not be very sharp at all(don't bark) or very very sharp(bark at everything), your female looks Johnson or hybrid type. They tend to be larger.
ABs are a wonderful breed, be careful you don't fall into the breed generalization traps as there are several very distinct types and lines in the breed. So while a certain line has such traits, other lines don't, or this type is generally this way, the other types are not etc.
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Re: Question about my American Bulldog Rescue.
[Re: Jennifer Marshal ]
#186653 - 03/19/2008 10:46 PM |
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Thanks for the info. Don't worry about hurting my feelings. If I am doing something wrong I want to know, first that I am, and second how to do it better. I am all about learning as much as I can. The more I know the happier the dog and my family will be.
Your comment about not giving to much info over the Internet speaks volumes about your credibility.
I read this site for weeks before posting because I was testing the waters. Every thing I have read here is well reasoned.
I am very excited about this dog. She kinda just fell into my lap, I was not out looking for a dog at this time in my life. How ever, so far she seems to be a close to perfect fit for our family.
My main concerns was not wanting to over correct and change in correction because of her past experiences. She is still a little skittish around strange environments.
We start class in 3 weeks. The trainer has experience training 100's of dogs for the Marines. She handles Dori very well, to the point it almost makes me jealous . I was wanting to improve on her obedience around other dogs before class starts.
My father-in-law, has 10 acres with sheep, chickens, cats etc. Would this be a good place to train with distraction? She is very prey driven.
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Re: Question about my American Bulldog Rescue.
[Re: Jeff Cambeis ]
#186655 - 03/19/2008 10:57 PM |
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The place sounds great and your teacher sounds very nice. I just don't want anything to happen in a class situation, I've seen it happen. Just last week at Petsmart the idiot instructor there gave horrible advice that lead to a dog fight in the class.
Regarding distractions.. I do training in stages. First, learning stage (no distraction or correction) then correction stage (introducing corrections for bad/wrong behavior) and then distraction. This is the most fair to the dog so it understands what you are asking AND what happens for noncomplience.
Now this does not go for behavior modification (aggression for example) as you are not teaching the dog to do something you are stopping something the dog already does. So the correction is the learning .. essentially. Distraction is what causes the behavior quite often so it all blends in when doing behavior mod versus actual learning training Obedience type work.
With her skittishness.. I agree not to correct a scared or freaked out dog. It can be difficult to tell at times what the dog is up to. If you have a timid dog that is acting aggressive it could be fear aggression. It could be territorial behavior. Try not to get hung up on her past. She has you now Dogs don't dwell like humans do unless humans enable and keep it around. So treat her like a dog that hs environmental/nerve issues and dog aggression, not like a poor neglected sad confused puppy. A lot of people get caught up in this so don't feel bad. It is important to take a dogs past into consdieration for understanding the behaviors but I've worked with dogs that have no history to go on at all. It's the dog you fix, not the history
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