How do you get him to go in?

Firstly, hi everyone. I'm new to the board, and to dogs as well, although I've had lots of experience with other animals over the years. We've had an 11 month old Canaan dog from a rescue for a week now. He's very good natured and intelligent, has fit into the family perfectly and is showing excellent adaptation to the pack structure; for instance it only took him a couple of days before he was waiting to let me go through doors first.

He stayed in the laundry room for a few days while we were waiting for the crate to arrive, and here is our problem. Although he doesn't seem to be afraid of the crate, or even to dislike it, he has absolutely no intention of being locked in it. The first night we threw some treats in and locked the door behind him. The second night he put his head in to eat the treats but kept his back legs out. So we put a kids toy with flashing coloured lights inside, and he ran in and lookd so angry with himself when we locked the door, lol. The third night he was interested in the toy, but wouldn't go in the crate for it. You can only trick him once.

Last night I turned off the lights and left him in the room alone with the crate open. When he realised there was no one around, he went all the way in to eat from his food bowl for a while and then came out and slept on the carpet.

I wouldn't mind giving him a few days of confidence building like that, without running to lock him up as soon as he's in, but I go back to work tomorrow and he's much to big to manhandle in, even if I wanted to.

I realise that most people start crate training when the dog is a puppy, but does anyone have ideas for starting with bigger dogs?

Thanks,
Arik

Hi Arik,

To start, have you read this:

http://leerburg.com/groundwork.htm

I'm not the most experienced person on the board but if this was my dog he'd be spending MOST of his time in the crate right now, with any time out of the crate for potty and exercise on-leash with me.

I'd feed him in the crate...pick the food up after 10 minutes if he won't go in an eat it and offer again at the next meal.

Use high-value treats...something he really loves and you may have to try different things to find out what that is. Give lots of praise, "Good Crate", when he goes in and, if he's behaving himself, toss some treats in from time-to-time and praise again with "Good Crate".

Give him something yummy and safe to occupy himself with while he's in the crate. I would stop using a kid's toy. You're crating him with something he could ingest and that could be fatal.

If the crate is in a separate room you may want to consider moving it to where the family congregates so he is not isolated.

Finally, when you do let him out...on-leash...for exercise and OB give him a good work out. Tired dogs are happy dogs.

Just some ideas

If he's in the crate all day, isn't he likely to be even more reluctant to go back in?

I read groundwork article, and almost all the others too before we adopted him, and very much liked the approach; that's why I'm turning to this board for extra help He was in social isolation for 4 days when we first got him, but it wasn't clear to me from the groundwork article what the critera are for ending that period. It just said for some dogs 3 days, for others weeks. Perhaps from my inexperience we let him out early, but he seemed to conform so quickly to us that it seemed the right thing to do. He still drags a leash around the house the whole time he's out of the crate.

BTW, the toy we used never actually goes in the crate, and seems a good idea (if your dog is less suspicious than mine...). It's one of those multicoloured flashlights with a bundle of optic fibres that you can wiggle around. You can poke the bundle through the holes of the crate and shake it around, and then withdraw it without having to reach into the crate.

That was an interesting idea to go back to the laundry room. Do you think that he has the level of abstraction necessary to realise that if he doesn't go in the crate he'll have to stay in the laundry room?

You'll have to forgive me for my ignorance - I am a first time dog owner after all - but I have a problem with the basic arithmatic that you've suggested. On the one hand you say that he should be in the crate for all of the family time, except for walks. On the other, you said we'll be able to get him inside "Eventually (maybe many sessions and days later) ". So... in the mean time, how can he be in the crate? And what do you do when you get back from a walk, since he won't go in the crate?

I appologise once again; but I seem to have missed the point...

Arik -

When starting crate training for an adult dog I start slowly with them. Very similar to how Jessica outlined, I will just go into a bit more detail for you. I have an area at first where they can be in outside of the crate that is safe and they can't get into mischief. Like your laundry room.

With the crate, I introduce it as a possitive. Treats so they go in, and they can come right back out again. More treats so they go in, and come back out again. Then you mark them being in the crate. As soon as they get all four legs in the crate "Good ____(crate/kennel/etc)!" give another treat quickly then let them come out. Don't close the door on them at first. Repeat several times (I do 5-10 depending on the dog and if they get bored quickly) then do it again in a couple of hours a few times. Repeat this randomly through the day. Always fed in the crate. If possible feed 2-3 times a day in the crate, and at separate times from treat sessions for going in the crate.

Second day shut the door but not latched/locked and stay there. mark with the command for crate/kennel and give another treat then open the door after 2-3 seconds. Gradually increase the time the door is closed to 10 seconds throughout the different sessions in the day(but don't close it every time, about 50% of the time and always let the dog come back out)

Over the next few days increase the time with the crate door actually closed/locked. Stay there with the dog, mark being in the crate and reward as long as the dog is not anxious or vocalizing etc. Mark several times if the dog is up to a minute or more in the crate and is still calm. When you get up to longer periods, over a minute or 5 minutes etc I do it once a session with mostly letting the dog just go in and out. I increase the time every session, every day for a week until the dog is calm and content in the kennel for several minutes.

Then for the next week the crate/kennel is kept in a high traffic area during the day and moved to my room t night so the dog gets used to being in the crate longer periods and people are still around. When the dog is calm in the crate (not whining, barking, pawing etc) I will randomly mark and reward. But don't get the dog excited for this, just calmly mark, give treat and walk away. No happy happy excited or you will make the dog excited and you want to always promote calm behavior in the crate.

Doesn't take long for them to become comfortable when they get rewarded and fed in the crate and are not automatically isolated. You can start moving the crate to quieter areas. I keep crates in my room and will move it from the living room during the day to the room in about 2 days, moving the crate further from the social area by a few feet every time I have the dog go to the crate until the crate is finally in my room.

I always treat for going in the crate. Its a habit, I never phased out the treats for going in the crate. The dogs run to their crates and wait happily for their tidbit. You can phase out treats for going in the crate if you would like but I usually recommend treating the dog for going into the crate randomly to maintain going into the crate as a possitive. I also gives dogs a frozen filled kong while in the crate or some safe healthy chew treat like a pizzle or something to keep them busy.

Done this way the dogs I crate trained didn't become anxious and gladly go to the crate.

Some dogs will do better when kept isolated, though. It depends on the dog and how pack oriented/social they are. A dog that is less social can be kept in the original area of being taught to go in the crate, if its away from people or in the room you want the crate to be in.



Edited by Jennifer Marshal (03/22/2008 05:59 PM)
Edit reason: spelling

Arik, I'm of the opinion that if your new dog is adjusting well and already has accepted you as his pack leader, I don't see any reason to keep him in the crate or laundry room for long periods of time. Some dogs take to the idea that you're their leader better than others and submit to it faster and easier.

Ed Frawley's article on groundwork with an adult dog states that with a dominant dog it may take longer to establish pack leadership and with some dogs it may take only 3 or 4 days. That being said, your dog is still a pup, even at 11 months. So as well as reading the groundwork for adults, read the one for puppies and balance the two together for your pup's age: http://www.leerburg.com/ebooks/puppygroundwork.pdf

It always comes down to reading the dog. If you feel he is able to handle more time out of the crate, do it on leash in the house so you always have control when you need it. You've only had him a week and there are things you don't know about him yet and how he'll react to different stimuli, and what he's likely to get into, etc. You want him to be calm, not wildly running through the house. The leash and/or tethering him to you will give control over that.

It IS important to crate train your dog of course. Does he bark or whine in protest? If so, he'll just have to go through that. Covering the crate may help, just be careful that he doesn't pull in the cover and start chewing or eating it. Make sure you not only give him a treat to go in, but also put in a kong filled with cream cheese or frozen plain yogurt so he can associate the crate with laying down and munching on something.

Don't force him in - bad association. It may take a while, depending on what his background was with being locked up somewhere, who knows. Do a bit of what you did, by leaving the crate door open, throw in a treat. Do that a few times a day. When it's time to close the door behind him, just do it. If he's calm when you close the door, throw in another treat and praise him.

Edited to add: just read Jennifer's post, with good and specific directions on crate training. I also agree with putting the crate where the dog can see the goings on in the home. Your dog does not sound like he needs isolation.

 Quote: Arik

That was an interesting idea to go back to the laundry room. Do you think that he has the level of abstraction necessary to realise that if he doesn't go in the crate he'll have to stay in the laundry room?

No he won’t, but he will understand that the laundry room is less fun than staying in the crate and being with the family. Dogs are pack animals, and you can use his desire to be with you to give the crate a positive association. In the crate = pack time, laundry room = isolation.

Don’t treat the laundry room as a punishment, treat the crate as a reward... Does that make sense? And then only after he has learned to go into the crate willingly.

The problem you have is an adult dog that already hates/mistrusts the crate. Had someone taught him early on that the crate was a good thing, it would be much easier. Had you had the dog for a while, and the trust was there, you could get away with a little more “push.” You have adopted an adult dog that you need to develop a relationship with while making him do something he doesn’t want to do and thinks is scary while still fostering that bond. The easiest thing to do would be to make the “scary” thing positive, good or at least pleasant. Use his desire/need to be with his new pack and his desire/need to eat to give it that positive edge.

 Quote: Arik

So... in the mean time, how can he be in the crate? And what do you do when you get back from a walk, since he won't go in the crate?

For now, put him back in the laundry room. Treat that as his “crate.” You are still accomplishing the same thing (teaching him that everything good comes from you, no self satisfaction) that you will use the crate for. Until he is comfortable/accepting of the crate, you can’t use it. When he “graduates” from the laundry room to the crate, he will have earned the right to be with the family. This is all of course assuming that you need him to accept it quickly for your purposes

Again, it is easier if they have no negative associations with the crate, or have a deep trust of the handler, but that is not the hand you have been dealt.

You had indicated in your second post that he has already earned the right to be out, four days I think… I think that is way to fast personally, but I don’t know your dog or your situation. If he does well, then let him be and work on it with less stress. If he is already loose, what is the crate for? If it is just a bed, and he has shown you that he doesn’t want to sleep in it, and if he is to be loose, then buy him a nice dog bed and don’t add to the stress.

If you want him to learn to go to the crate temporarily when asked, then make it an OB exercise. Do all of the (food/treat/slowly) stuff mentioned and just slowly work your way up to an hour with the door closed. Make it a fun and positive thing the way Jennifer mentioned.

If you are planning to use the crate to establish a routine with the dog, be it for daily life, training purposes, control, pack structuer or any of the many other reasons, then use the social isolation stuff for a while longer.

My older female does not prefer the crate. She’ll go in when told to, but after eight years, she has earned the right to just sleep on her bed. She is trustworthy, and has zero pack issues. No extra stress for her. My male (below) after three years, has earned the right to sleep loose much of the time. But he eats in his crate every time, and is often locked in for the night. Not ‘cause he’ll do anything, but because it reestablishes that I am in charge. Two or three days a week he is crated most of the day, usually the day before or of training. He does push rank issues once in a while, so he gets a little more control placed on him than my female. (FWIW she was not crate trained as a pup. He was&hellip

There are as many ways to live with a dog as there are dogs. Just the two of mine need different styles of handling. You will find what works best for you and yours!

I totally agree with Jennifer and Sandy here. All the advice is great and will help enormously in the training of your new addition.

Good luck and keep us posted.....

 Quote: Carol Boche

I totally agree with Jennifer and Sandy here. All the advice is great and will help enormously in the training of your new addition.

Good luck and keep us posted.....

Me too.....or....er....Me three. Anyway, what they said! I don't have much to add, except to say I would cut him a little slack since he does have to get through the period of adjustment, so long as he isn't testing you or trying to punk you.