Hi. Thanks for your thoughts on this. Apologies in advance for the long post.

The very short version of my question is: what is the proper technique with the remote collar if the dog is running away during a state of avoidance rather than drive?

The rest of this post gives some background on my dog and the situation that inspired me to write in.

Occasionally my dog, Lily, spooks and goes into avoidance and responds very differently to the stimulation than she does when in drive. I’m not sure how to manage through this.

Some background:
Lily is a rescued Doberman, probably a little less than 2 years old. We’ve had her not quite 1 year.

I’ve been using Ed’s remote collar techniques, and have tried to stick closely to the training steps as they are presented. We’ve had great success for polite walking, automatic recall and for curbing dog aggression.

When Lily is in a relaxed state, she seems fairly soft, and will respond well to a nick at about 28% power (Dogtra 1700NCP at 35 to 40). This has been our working level for most training, and has been very productive and seemingly not too stressful for her.
I’m now able to reliably call Lily away from other dogs even when everybody is off-leash – a major advancement. In fact, it has become difficult to find distractions high enough anymore to use for training automatic recall as Ed shows in the DVD: for most distractions at this point, Lily is just too responsive to justify use of the nick to reinforce the command.

But a few times we’ve come across a distraction that put her into drive (other dog, or rabbit). In those cases, she became seemingly impervious to nick stimulation, even at 3X the normal level, and I resorted to continuous to break her out of drive, at which point she recalled with a nick, and all was well. She squeals out bloody murder when given continuous stimulation. She’d take treats harder for a while after that (still thinking of the rabbit, maybe&hellip, but would get back to normal pretty soon after the stimulation. Since those first experiences, she seems to be learning to curb her drive state and is able to pay attention to my commands even when in higher drive. Use of even the nick stimulation has become ever more rare, and I haven’t used continuous other than for this small number of times when she let a maximum distraction get the best of her.

So….use of the remote collar to manage drive-related behaviors is going really well, and Lily is practically a model citizen now, especially compared to the dog-aggressive, fence-fighting, leash-pulling nightmare that she was when we adopted her.

However, if she gets into an avoidance state, she becomes much trickier to manage.

If we are walking on leash and she goes into avoidance on account of another dog, it hasn’t been very productive to give her a nick correction for breaking heel. (In these encounters, sometimes she’s the bully and sometimes she’s the wimp, so I have to keep changing up my technique.) Gently encouraging her back into place and rewarding with treats seems to work better. Nicking her doesn’t seem to spur her back into heel position like it normally would from drive, and if anything, it seems to just add to the stress of the whole encounter.

But coaxing her with treats wasn’t an option this week when we were walking off leash in an empty field and I spooked her inadvertently. It had been a warm afternoon and I wanted to try out the new portable folding water dish that I had recently bought from Leerburg. So I kneeled down on the ground near Lily with the dish and a bottle of water. Maybe she thought she was about to get her nails clipped or her teeth brushed or something terrifying like that, because she took off running. Doing my usual routine, I called “come-come!” along with the pager, which I’ve trained to equal the recall command. No response. Then I repeated this sequence, with a nick right after. Zilch. Then I repeated again, dialing up the power on the nick. Still nothing. At this point, she’s almost out of sight and almost out of the field (maybe 100 yards away), and who knows where she’s going to end up. I’m pretty worried now, and say “no!” and hold continuous. She howls out and stops running. I’m running towards her now, calling out “down!” (she’s become very good at executing commands at a distance), and she lays down. I don’t think that I used the continuous stimulation for any longer than necessary to get her to stop and obey. I hope I didn’t. When I get to her I praise her and try to reward her with our highest-value treat (which I save for automatic recall and for keeping cool around aggressive dogs), but she is too stressed to eat. Not too long after this, on a walk to try to shake off the jitters (mine and hers), she remains reluctant to eat, but will go for the highest value treats.

Since then, we’ve been back for off-leash walks in this field. We started by walking on-leash past the spot where I frightened her, and she’s clearly still anxious about it. But still, we had a good frolic after that, and I didn’t push my luck by exiting the field off-leash past the same “bad” spot. No hurry on that, I figure. I don’t want to induce a “test” of her inclination to bolt, so soon after the original event, and not without reading your advice first.

Now, obviously, there is plenty that I can do to reduce the chance of spooking her, and I’m taking steps to desensitize her to the water bowl and bottle, and all that good stuff.

But my bigger concern is more general: what’s the right way to respond if the dog is running off like this? I think this type of occurrence will be very rare in the future, but I need to be prepared for the worst-case scenario. Even if I never spook her again, there is always some chance that something else will. Naturally, I’d much rather stress her out with continuous stimulation than lose her or let her run into a street. But at the same time, I obviously don’t want to overdo it and “mess her up.” I feel more confident and justified in using the stimulation to curb drive-based behavior as compared to avoidance-based behavior. And it seems like the lessons are clearer to Lily in these cases. But at the same time I don’t want any undesirable behavior to get reinforced through my inaction.

In the last few days since the event Lily has seemed more anxious than usual about new situations, although her bond to me doesn’t seem particularly damaged. She still recalls well without stimulation; doesn’t shy away from me, etc.

Writing this reminds me of a point of confusion I’ve had about proper stim level setting: is there a single stim level that is appropriate for both nick and continuous? It seems like the level that is functional at nick is too intense at continuous. And more than once I’ve used continuous only after a few failed attempts to nick at ever higher levels, at which point I’m jumping to continuous in “emergency mode” and it is way higher than it needs to be. Maybe the right balance is to use a lower setting and keep it there, but be more ready to switch to a brief continuous stim when Lily is being bull-headed about the nicks… rather than dialing up the intensity of nicks in those situations?

Thanks again for your advice.
-Jesse

Just generally, Jesse, you describe your dog as soft and yet you
have used an extremely high stimulation on your dog with the result of your dog screaming. This is not a response I would want from a dog ever. This describes a dog in survival mode and not a dog in learning mode. This explains why your dog is all over the place in his responses, I don't believe dogs are bull-headed, just confused as to what we want,. It's time, I believe to get back to basics and start over., Go back to on leash teaching, with a much lower level of stimulation, like 18 to 21 paired with some treats to see if you can gain some trust back with your dog. Sounds like a soft dog that has had some trust issues with humans. Please try and see this from her perspective.

I am not the e-collar guru that Roni is, but I have the same collar as you do.

I have a 2.5 yr old high drive Mal bitch that will kill cats given the chance.

Tonight, about 10 minutes ago, I took her out for a potty break and did not see the two cats in the driveway since it is dark. The cats started fighting and Jesea bolted towards them, I said "NAY, LEAVE IT" and although it slowed her down for a second she ignored me and continued hell bent on getting to those cats, I turned the collar to 34 and nicked her once and she turned and came back.

Since I used the collar incorrectly to get her to stop chasing/killing cats when she was young I was REALLY surprised to have 34 work when she was high in drive and focused on getting those cats.

Just goes to show that the work I am doing with low stim is working (might not be doing it exactly right but she is responding WAY better in our obedience work) and that although it will be a long road to change the collar work I do, it can happen. I do not think she will ever get over me frying her, but I am moving forward and not allowing what I did in the past to affect our progress.

Since your dog sounds soft, which mine is not really, I would say that the low level stuff will work GREAT for you.

Carol,
Thanks for your thoughts.
It seems hard to find educational materials or discussion of the situation that I'm describing.

During calm conditions and prey-driven conditions Lily is near 100% reliable and responsive. Even in fight-driven conditions she's become pretty darn good. The basics aren't the issue at this point. The questions I'm raising here aren't covered in the DVD or in the posts that I've found on the board.

Specifically:

1) How do we use the remote collar with a dog whose functional minimum stim level can vary depending on the distraction/drive level?
(This is a big deal with Lily. Most of our corrections with her are verbal only, and most of the time she will be as responsive to verbal as you'd ever expect for physical corrections. This is why I think of her as soft, for the most part. But this is a dog that also once tore her own head out of a Gentle Leader head harness (yes...properly tightened) so that she could run down the block and engage another dog. The day the cable guy came to the house she went to full cujo-mode and my wife was basically unable to manage Lily, even with continuous. Lily’s sensitivity can vary wildly, and it's not a function of her understanding - she's smart, and knows her commands well.)

2) How and when do we move from nick to continuous during an event, and is this done with or without a change in level? By "event" I mean an attempt to generate the correct response to a specific command.

3) How do we modify use of the collar when the dog is in avoidance rather than in drive? Again, Lily has become a super-champ when it comes to obedience while in drive.

What we went through this week was very upsetting for both of us. It's tempting to assume that a similar situation won't arise again, put it out of mind and focus on all the positive experiences that we are having (especially now that Lily can romp off-leash .. fun!) But I don't think that would be responsible. I need to be trained for the extreme, rare situations as well.

I appreciate your support.
- Jesse

 Quote: jesse haifley

Carol,


1) How do we use the remote collar with a dog whose functional minimum stim level can vary depending on the distraction/drive level?

I would go back to basics and work with minimal distractions until she is solid and then add slowly to her surroundings. You mentioned that she is a super-champ in her obedience work, and from what you are explaining that is not totally correct. If you are having issues with her shutting down or going into avoidance, then something is wrong. It may be the way the command is said, it may be the corrections that were delivered to teach the command. I am not sure I would utilize the e-collar in situations of avoidance since it can escalate whatever the dog is feeling and make it worse.

 Quote: jesse haifley

2) How and when do we move from nick to continuous during an event, and is this done with or without a change in level? By "event" I mean an attempt to generate the correct response to a specific command.

mmmm, I will leave this one to Roni as I am not real sure how to explain it.
But I will say that IMHO, it all goes back to basics. If you have a dog that needs changes in levels of corrections all the time, then there is some kind of glitch in the training.
I am having that problem with one of my dogs right now and so I have gone way back to almost the beginning and am watching to see what mistakes I made as I re-establish leadership. It is working well and I can see where I did little things to cause some of these issues.

 Quote: jesse haifley

3) How do we modify use of the collar when the dog is in avoidance rather than in drive? Again, Lily has become a super-champ when it comes to obedience while in drive.

Well, to be honest.....I created avoidance in my older Mal when she was young and I paid for that, but hard work and using different methods (positive reinforcement and low level stims) and we are working around it quite nicely.
It is not the dogs fault, it is mine. Same with you, it is not her fault that an avoidance issue has been created.
I am lucky that the avoidance is just with one thing (cats) and not in our whole routine.

Not sure that a gentle leader is the best thing, in fact I would never use one. It sounds like she is highly dog aggressive if she is fighting to get away to get to another dog. That is something that needs to be addressed and there are more qualified people here to answer that.


Do you have any of Ed's DVD's?

Establishing Pack Structure with the Family Pet
Dealing with the Dominant Dog
E-Collars for the Pet Owner (not sure of that title but it is close)

These are all great videos to start with.

Even Basic Obedience is one I watch from time to time.

Thanks Carol.
I appreciate all the time that you've given me on this.

I've put up a lot of issues and questions here, but if I could end up with only one clear answer out of this thread, this is what I'd ask for:

What should one do if their otherwise well-trained dog gets spooked while off-leash and bolts? That is, when the dog is motivated by some sort of fear rather than by prey drive, aggression, etc. The dog is running away from something (maybe even the handler), rather than running towards something.

Let's leave aside for now the particulars surrounding me and my dog, and what I have or haven't done correctly in the past, and how well she may or not be trained. Is there an answer to this question, in general?

….

I'm getting the feeling that Lily and I might be on our own with this one. Maybe I'm not doing a good job conveying our situation, but I've probably taken up enough space with posts trying to describe it accurately.

We've been through all of those DVDs you mention, to great success, and the Gentle Leader has gone into the trash long ago. I mentioned that episode in an effort to describe the range of temperament that Lily can display.

And, again, this avoidance thing is very rare. Bolting from me in the field was a big surprise.

Other than bolting from me in the field, the other avoidant behavior I'm talking about is in regards to other dogs. I used to nick-correct her every time she broke heel when passing another dog. But I've since noticed that sometimes she is breaking heel with an aggressive attitude (for which she still gets the collar correction) and other times breaks heel due to a sort of shying away. So for that I now just gently say "no-no: heel" and have the treat ready. That's been going well.
This distinction was a little complicated to make at first because sometimes she would drop back out of heel (seems avoidant), only to then spring for the other dog when I did not have as good a view of her. She keeps me on my toes.

She doesn't go into avoidance as a result of our training or anything like that. Again, all of our training is based on Ed’s DVDs. Some corrections, and a ton of treats and praise. During recall I even run from her and scream “Yesssss!” like a crazy person (that is: like Ed does it). So: I’m well on-board and a true believer in all those techniques.

I don't know what to do except ask you to take my word for it that Lily's obedience is very strong and reliable even under top distractions. I can call her off of full-chase of prey, verbally, at great distance, without stim. I think she’s impressive. I’m not trying to puff myself up when I tell you these things, I’m trying to explain the context and why the situation is challenging, and different from what is usually discussed for recall training with the e-collar. I’m trying to convey that there is a very clear relationship between her level of excitement, drive, whatever you want to call it, and her sensitivity to stim. Her sensitivity varies, but it is not random, and is more complex than distraction level, simply put.

All the best.
- Jesse

Jesse-
This will sound very basic but it directly addresses the problem so I'd try it this way:

You need to set up the situation again and get as many dog savvy people as possible to closely observe the dog and the surrounding area so that you can identify and isolate the stimuli than sent/sends your dog into a flight response.

Once you identify the stimuli, you can train the dog in small steps to de-sensitize her to that particular stimuli.

Basically, find out what spooks her and train her to see that the spooky thing is no danger...........

 Quote: Jesse Haifley

What should one do if their otherwise well-trained dog gets spooked while off-leash and bolts? .... The dog is running away from something (maybe even the handler), rather than running towards something.

The answer you need is clear in that paragraph. You need to know what it is.

JMHO: Will has hit it right on the button.

Connie; Will,
Thanks for your thoughts.

Understood.
But that doesn't give any tools to use, in the moment, to deal with the dangerous behavior when it occurs by surprise.

We can't always know what the spooky things will be (the current thread on car tires is a nice illustration of this), but we do have to respond skillfully should a spooking occur. That's the skill I'm looking for here on the board.

Of course avoiding emergencies is a fundamental part of the picture. But that's not the part that I'm writing in for help with.

In any case, fwiw, my inclination at this point is to use a lower setting as the base-case, but to be quicker to shift to continuous when Lily is pushing through the nick. First, brief continuous, then longer, and only then move to raising the volume. This approach seems more flexible, controlled, and errs on the side of lowest intensity necessary.
Delaying use of continuous until only after higher levels of nick have failed sets us up for an overly intense experience. At some point during the event, you run out of time for fiddling around with the dial, and things get a little panicky.

Thanks again.
-Jesse

A leash is always a good tool. Keeps the dog from running away A dog that isn't reliable should be on lead and unable to get themselves into the situation that requires the high-stim.