Ok, I have a 2 yr old gsd that i have been doing obed with...I have really been working him pretty hard during the last 3 weeks or so....usually 2-3 times a day....just basic stuff...sit, down, here( where he comes directly in front of me and stares up at me), and the heel position...just mainly coming to my left side and sitting...When i have food, he is doing really well. The problem is that when doing without food, his here command is lacking.....he is usually always pretty good with down and sit...i have read where the food can become "bribing" So at this point what do i need to start doing to take food out of the picture. Also, im working on the heel with him focusing on me......If i am working with food, he will do this occasionally, which i mark and give food the second he does..He also always seems to look up after i make a right turn..ive been working on this for prob 2-3 weeks as well and feel like im not doing something right because it seems like he's not getting any better with his length of eye contact....I mark when he looks and have made it where he has to look for several steps for looking...ive tried to do the focus heel with his orbee and he does extremely well with this but will jump up for the ball continously.....

Are you sure he understands the commands and is just not doing them? Or could he be confused with them?

Are you working on one command at a time? Or putting them all together in one session?

How long have you had him? What is the background on him?

I know, tons of questions, but needed in order for us to give answers.

I put the ball or tug I am using to work on heel work under my left armpit, completely out of sight. The dogs I do this with know I have it, but since they cannot see it, they do not jump for it like they used to when it was in view but instead, look up to me as they know I will release the ball for a reward on a good fuss......Thank you to Donna Matey for that trick.....

Brent, what else motivates the dog aside from food? You mention the Orbee gets his attention. How does he respond to affection and/or praise? There are many things that a dog can consider a reward - play, food, affection/attention etc it depends on the dog Alternate your rewards and slowly phase out the treats.

Also, begin to extend the time between the marker and the reward. The dog does not need the reward instantly after the marker. The marker is what tells the dog that is what you want, so if you mark correctly/timed right the reward can come 5, 10, 15 seconds afterwards as long as you don't continue to another task or command. I am learning the Bridge and Target method of SATS (Syn Alia Training System) and learned that rewards do not have to be given every time to obtain optimal results - in fact, variation and intermitent rewards work best after the initial session(s)

Also, what kind of focus work have you done with the Orbee, do you have the Drive and Focus DVD? Before you start putting a high value prey item near your face or tucked in an arm I recommend working on some control/focus where the do learns that jumping gets no reward. A dog that has not learned that jumping gets nothing, or that does jump can be a hazard especially if you have the desired item under your chin.

For focused heeling I have taught it entirely with markers and food rewards for my current project dog. He will not catch treats or pretty much any item and has low prey drive so I started by teaching him the look at me command and then worked it into heeling, as you can see below in my sigpic. I am now beginning to phase out looking at him while focused to looking forward.

*Edit* And what Carol said! Sorry I am REALLY slow tonight


Edited by Jennifer Marshal (05/31/2008 11:39 PM)
Edit reason: Carol's Post

Ok, the dog is a 25 month old gsd imported from hungary...showline pedigree........He is trained in narcotics, and is going on the street as a single purpose narc dog here soon...Like I said, his sit, down, down stay are really good...and mainly the only ones im concerned with....But I like the "here" and focus heel so Ive been working on it..I have the focus dvd and he picked up really well on it...Basically would sit as soon as i held the ball over him..Like the first time out doing the exercise....i can lower the ball down to his face and he will not grab or jump...But if i have the ball jerking it around he does jump...I have probly tought him to jump while getting him worked or his ball which is what i reward with in narcotics....As far as his sessions every day....I dont do just one command...ill do some sitting...some downing...some down stays...some heeling...should i just be doing one at a time and should i start taking food out of the equation gradually and just give lots of praise.....he has reallly good food and ball drive but it seems that he is easier to control when using the food

Also, i wanted to add...While doing here and fuss command i will hold the treat in my hand up by my chest....if i dont have food and hold my hand up by my chest he keys in on that and usually does well, but when my hands are not up by my chest he will not always do the command

I just re read my post and I Was quite tired last night lol my last sentence makes no sense. I don't stare at him the whole time I walk, I'd probably get a crick in my neck or fall over I have been marking and rewarding his looking at my face when I am facing forward with the formal heel word (fuss) so as to keep a focused heel separate from a normal every day walk about the town.

Brent - it is not difficult to accidentally teach the dog to jump up for the prey item during focus work, I did it with the first dog I used that type of method with. Comes from jerking the prey item up instead of back or over/around. Happened to me when the dog got too close and I wound up not being able to back up any further/wacked my arm when trying to jerk the item backwards. Wasn't paying attention and backed myself right up to the side of the house (D'oh!) It's a matter of being fast enough to prevent the dog from getting it if you move it up/only moving it upwards for sit and focus. May take an entire session with some dogs of them jumping and not getting the reward to over ride being taught that jumping still gets the reward.

Also - does he know a command to look at your face? Or is he only looking because you are baiting him with the treat or ball? Do you mark the behavior or only reward for looking upwards? If you have not taught it already/have only been rewarding the looking when baiting, teach the look at me game/command by marking and rewarding eye contact/looking at your face. To begin with you can say the dog's name or make a funny sound to get his attention and to look at you, and then mark the second he looks and reward.

This is how I did it with my dog that will not catch anything/low prey drive. Extend the time of the look gradually, get up to 15 or 20 seconds or whatever you would like that is not excessive/span it over several sessions. Then while sitting next to you in heel possition ask for a look, mark and reward. Gradually increase the length of time to look at your face while sitting at heel, then step off (Fuss/Au Pied etc) take one or two steps after the heel command and ask for a look, and begin again marking and rewarding for longer periods of time. Keep the pace consistent and start in a straight line adding in variations as each portion becomes solid. Eventually the dog will just look at you without you asking for it when you step off at heel or will maintain the look from sitting at heel to fuss and you want to mark and reward the looking without asking for it. A lot of dogs catch on very quickly and don't require as much work to maintain focus on the face after the initial extension of the look command.

Remember you do not need to reward immediately/instantly. Rewarding instantly is not desireable as you can't hold the dogs attention for as long. The mark is the end of the activity/command it is essentially a release, but the dog will remain focused if waiting for a reward (which I give about 30% of the time as toy or food, 100% praise/affection)


Hope I made sense today!

Hi Brent,

I think some dogs fail to learn what we are trying to teach them because they are so focused on the reward; it almost is like a retrain when you take that away, or maybe in this dog's case, he may be rigid or situational in his thought process and learning style, so that everything must be lined up exactly right for him to 'get it'.

Then again, if he's 2, it could just be that he's still an adolescent, and the pieces just haven't come together yet. My dogs (Amstaffs) don't mature until around three; that's about the age when we start feeling like a real team and the training all gels.

I try to train my dogs with external motivators both on and off my body, and frequently use them as distractions. If you haven't conditioned him to do this yet, try a simple behavior like eye contact.

I've been working with Kayce Cover's bridge and target methods for several years now and am thrilled to have it in my training bag. One aspect I like about it is that it gets the handler and dog away from being dependent on external motivators, and creates another, which are the two bridges, intermediate and terminal.

The intermediate bridge specifically gives greater information than a single marker and building duration with it is fairly simple as information and support are constant while the animal is learning, delivered in increasing cycles.
Both bridges and targets can be taught in under five minutes each, and are a great way of setting up better communication with your dog.

Julie Kinsey
Houston TX

I had been teaching him to focus on me to get his treat...I would hold a treat out and when he looked at me, he was rewarded....Was doing this for a while and could wave it around etc. while he maintained eye contact....Well, I got the bldg drive dvd and quit doing that so he would focus on the ball....I feel like i am going to have to do it with food due to his drive for the ball....This dog can jump like i have never seen before...And i havent been discouraging it when building drive with th orbee..Something I will have to do...What is this Kayce Cover's bridge....Link?

I had been teaching him to focus on me to get his treat...I would hold a treat out and when he looked at me, he was rewarded....Was doing this for a while and could wave it around etc. while he maintained eye contact....Well, I got the bldg drive dvd and quit doing that so he would focus on the ball....I feel like i am going to have to do it with food due to his drive for the ball....This dog can jump like i have never seen before...And i havent been discouraging it when building drive with th orbee..Something I will have to do...What is this Kayce Cover's bridge....Link?

Is it okay to put a link up?
Julie K