please forgive the lengthy post. I have a 2-year-old GSD spayed small female #65 with me now for 10 months out of kennel.

The situation is breaking my heart.

I have been following the leerburg ideas/forums for home training in 'packleader ' and obedience, and also gone thru the local obedience trainers route with her.

After 10 months of home training, she does sit, stay, down, etc., 100% reliable at home, and also in 2 different OB classes with different instructors and different classmate handlers (on either prong or leather collar.)

she is trained 2x a day by me, walked/run 3x a day..isn't allowed on beds/furniture, always waits for me to go 1st in/out or up/down, platzes 5 minutes to earn her food, toy or a walk. never shows any aggresssion to me re; food, leash, release of her toys etc. she is in a crate when company comes.

BUT when she and i walk alone outside the house (she on prong w/ leather lead and dominant dog collar ) 95 of 100 times she is fine.

But then she sees a random passerby, breaks away and lunges at this complete stranger , barking and snapping and trying to bite him with no reason or provocation.(only towards men, never women.)

She has done this 5 times in 10 months.

2 schools of thought here from 2 different trainers: first trainer -used only 'reward' based positive reinforcement, no prong no e- collar, violently disagrees with Leerburg methods. This trainer said --plan to keep her in a crate or on a tether at all times, never walk her without her being on a halti, use a leather muzzle if not a halti, she will always be people-aggressive, just change your lifestyle (ie walk her early in am , late at nite, keep her away from people...).

(I gave up on this trainer after 4 months, as the dog still snapped and lunged without provocation.)

Now with trainer #2 -who agrees with Leerburg--we use a prong , we use some some positive toy-based reward and some 'negative '-strong 'prong pops' , or e-collar corrections. (I am still with this trainer , we do 1 private and 1 group class per month plus all the home training i do daily..)

Trainer #3 a well known local schutzhund trainer, for 2 sessions only -- used a 'hang/choke the dog' helicopter maneuver to 'prevent her ever lunging again'--this maneuver i found quite upsetting and it did not improve the problem).

So after 10 months: i do not have 100% control of this dog outside the home. just today she pulled the leash out of my hand, and lunged without reason at a man who came silently and unexpectedly around the front of my car.

I yelled NEIN and went after her grabbed her by the ruff, pulled her off the ground , verbal discipline then PLATZ.

Her claws scratched his knees (she did not 'bite' him or draw blood--she has never bitten anyone but has snapped and lunged , trying to 'get at' certain random people for reasons unknown to me.)

This morning's episode scared me to death because my tightest grip and the pain of pulling on the prong simply COULD NOT keep the leash in my hand. she pretty well wrenched my wrist pulling away. He was an acquaintance, I was on good terms with him , and he said I'm OK , don't worry.

BUT I am worried, and can't seem to figure out where I am going wrong.

have you any suggestions for schools/trainers/ programs ? i am at wits' end and fear i just cannot control her reliably enough . (got her from a kennel aug 07 as a teenager 'runt of litter' she is 18 months this month)

i have read and re read the leerburg forums and and practiced the leerburg suggestions til i am ready to cry.

her present trainer (#2) said 'she is very protective of you, but very 'sharp'/fear aggressive , you must just continue working with her...she is a fine dog.' But one whom I can't physically control outside the home ?

I am now age 61, retired with bad arthritis in both hands. she is a companion dog for me as we are at home 24/7 together.) (She is my 4th dog and 2nd GSD.) i can't imagine keeping her on a ;'halti' or crate-bound for life or 'only walking her on halti or muzzle at dawn or midnite.... what do i do ? where do i go from here?

Caroline I would strongly suggest you not adhere to any suggestion regarding fixing your problem from this or any other forum. That said many of these suggestions are made in good faith but no one has seen the dynamics when this behavior evidences itself therefore are not in a position to accurately advise how to change it. No offense but your description of said events may be skewed. That said before you can set upon a course to change the dogs aggressive behavior you must first determine why the behavior. Is the aggression caused because of a nerve problem in the dog or is it a dominance or trust issue issue with you. When you find out why you can then create a training regiment to help change it. From what you have written it sounds like a nerve problem to me, but as I said don't listen to me. Norman

First off I would muzzle with your age and health issues there is just to much chance she can get away from you. Which I havent seen your dog but the fact that you couldnt do a choke out on your dog I would fear handler agression also.

Next we take the muzzled dog and try to beat(with forced downs and leash corrections) the lesson into her.

How long did trainer 3 work with the dog. How many weeks? Remember Choke outs dont look pretty but you have a dog with one more slip of the leash you might be haveing to put her down.

Just My Thoughts

Also what DVDs do you have of Ed's?

I think it would be safe to say that once a month sessions with a good trainer is far too few. Ideally, I think you'd want private sessions, maybe once a week?

I also feel comfortable saying this dog should NEVER wear a halti. Not ever. And you shouldn't leave the house without a muzzle. Not ever.

My understanding is that however much progress you make with a dog through good training, the potential for aggression may always be there and you'll have to be able to deal with the dog physically. Even muzzled, your dog could still hurt someone. You can (and did) get hurt trying to control your dog. I see this as being almost as big a problem/issue/obstacle as the dog's aggression and I don't have a good answer for it.

i really don't have the knowledge to address the aggression issues, but i just want to add a voice for muzzling your dog. i think given the control issues and the aggression she's displaying it's really important.

Always an interesting read, Mike!

I have read this post with interest. I absolutely notice a difference in my dog depending on how confident I'm feeling on a walk. If I go out, feeling a little tired, and a little less confident than normal of the situation, that's when he tends to lunge at other dogs. Also, my attention has been pre-occupied, so I'm not aware of his change in body posturing, and by the time I'm correcting him, he's already ramping up.

Just last night I took my GSD for a quick walk round the block, and we encountered a little white scruffy dog who was going crazy at the site of mine. I was feeling strong and confident and absolutely intolerable of any adverse behavior by my dog, gave a quick "leave it" and slight leash correction as he just merely looked in the direction of the other crazy dog, and that fixed it!!! When he went to turn his head to look, again, "leave it" and quick pop on the leash and we had a lovely walk, with no bad behavior.

Ms. Biros,

I really believe exuded attitude and even a 'pretended' self-confidence plays a major, major role in working with a dog.

My German GSD has to be first, has to alert, has to challenge, has to act aloof, has to be more dominant, and the list goes on... If I tolerated that behavior in control moments, the dog would have trained me to be the follower.

I want her to be alive and energetic and enthusiastic and, and, and... But she has to respond to my commands or else she will become unpredicable and a potential danger - and all dogs are dangerous at any given time.

If you have a bright dog, it will soon figure out your personality and how to exploit it to its advantage. It can be situational in that a dog wonderful in the house, with the family, in the confines of the property, and goes atypical or unpredictable on a walk. The dog defines its role in such circumstance - in my opinion.

There are only two sides of the coin: heads - you are in control and the dog fully and comfortably gets its role; tails - you are not in control and you and the dog are uncomfortable with its role with predictable outcomes.

Anyway... Enough pontification. Good on you for recognizing the importance of attitude and self-confidence. We all learn a little more about ourselves and our personalities, our strengths and weaknesses from our dogs - I think.

Keep on keep'n on.

Need coffee.

Where do you live?

Caroline, one thing that I didn't see specifically mentioned. Do you have a 'small' prong collar? ie smaller links that are closer together?
The effort that you exert for a correction is not as great with the smaller prongs, and perhaps you would be able to control her more effectively, given your arthritis...