Hi,

I'm a new member, but have been lurking here for several months. So much great information!

I have an incredible 10 yo GSD named Zodi, an Orry granddaughter. We competed in agility and obedience, and since she is small, agile and very, very driven, she was competitive with the BCs. (I'd add a picture of her in my signature, but can't figure out how to resize my photos, being a bit of a CompuIdiot.)

I hope to be getting a Dutch shepherd pup in October, given that the breeding takes and all goes well with the pregnancy and whelping. I am revisiting a lot of issues and am making different decisions than I did when Zodi was a pup, given that I am finding new information out there. I will be posting the relevant questions and looking forward to your collective wisdom and experience.

The current question regards when to spay. My DS will be a female, and she will be spayed, as I have no intention of breeding. The old advice was to spay before the first heat, to avoid increased incidence of mammary tumors, and that's the advice I followed for Zodi. In all my research at that time, I never ran across anything that indicated that reproductive hormones were related to joint development/health and growth plate closing. However I have seen several comments on this forum that suggest later spaying for this reason (one recent post suggested after the 3rd heat cycle, for example).

I am very much interested in finding out more about this topic. Can anyone point me to research articles that address this issue, or any other published information that is relevant? Or, is this wisdom more anecdotal in nature?

Thanks in advance,
leih merigian

Here is a thread from a month ago that talked about this issue.

Shannon wrote:

 Quote: shannon reed

Here is an article about early spay and neuter. As the article states it is "one veterinarians opinion", but it does have some good references.
http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

And another with some more information
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Shannon

For a responsible owner, I don't see any reason to spay or neuter early. It is an unnecessary surgery that for the single benifit of preventing mammary cancer, a relatively easy cancer to catch and cure... Not for me.

Having watched many friends go through hysterectomies, I have not envied them one bit, and hope that I will never have to go through that myself. Can't see putting my dog through that for any reason, especially convenience. I know that we can't compare dogs and humans, but still...

I have had intact dogs all of my life, and have never had an unexpected pregnancy or an incident of cancer of any reproductive "parts."

If you have to do it, then imagine what would happen to a small child with their parts (what ever the sex) removed before full development. I would choose to wait until full sexual maturity and body development before doing it. (Can you tell my opinion on the matter! )

On the other hand, if we are talking about an average pet owner who will not be able to contain and protect their pet, the by all means, please spay. Way too many "accidents" out there already. The fact that you are here and asking the questions tells me that you are not one of these, but intelligent enough to make your own decision based on your situation and research...

OK, this is kind of weird, but I'm going to answer my own question here in case anyone else may be interested in what I have discovered while doing research.

There is an excellent article by Chris Zink DVM, Ph.D., DACVP on her website (www.caninesports.com) titled Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete - One Veterinarian's Opinion.

As it turns out, the sex hormones are very important factors in the closing of growth plates, as well as in the correct development of various bones in relation to each other. She sites a number of studies that demonstrate increased incidence of various cancers, too, that are related to early spay/neuter. These factors become even more critical for the canine athlete. Her bottom line recommendation is not to spay or neuter until maturity, at least 14 months old.

So, I will definitely be following a new and improved spaying protocol with my new puppy<g>. One thing she mentions that I think is worth looking into is tubal ligations and vasectomies, until the time when one does decide to procede with the spay or neuter procedures.

I am glad I ran into mention of this topic on this forum. It is too easy to assume that older knowledge remains relevant, especially when it comes to such critical decisions as this.

(I remain interested in learning of other people's experience or references on this topic.)

leih merigian

Good for you! Not enough people do their own research and end up just following the publicly accepted method of doing things.

Here you will learn about raw feeding (" WHAT!!! You feed your dog RAW CHICKEN BONES!!! Don't you know that will kill them!! Here feed Pedigree, that is what the breeders feed."), minimal vaccinations ("The puppy comes with three sets of vaccinations when you take him home at 9 weeks. Aren't we responsible!" and pack structure.

I love this site, and try to steer some clueless dog owners here as often as possible. Half of my Leerburg DVDs are out on loan to those who are open to learning.

---

Jessica

Believe it or not, the same studies that (some) Vets love to quote about preventing mammary tumors by spaying prior to the first heat, also show that spaying AFTER 1-2 heats still has the same benefit, with only a *slight* reduction percentage-wise. After 3 or more heats, the benefit is dramatically reduced. They tend to leave that part out, though.

So, you can balance the mammary tumor risk, with allowing the dog to mature properly. Allowing a dog to have 1-2 heats DOES NOT put the dog at a significantly increased risk of cancer, and DOES allow the dog to develop properly.

All of my females have had at LEAST one heat, if not two.

Jessica,

Thanks for the references; I'll check them out.

I've been a raw feeder for years and will never go back<g>. I'm also wrestling with the vaccination issues, but will save that for a different post (it's been a long time since I did boosters, but I've got to work thru whether I'll only do rabies, period, or puppy rounds of parvo and distemper...to be continued<g>.

leih merigian

>>So, you can balance the mammary tumor risk, with allowing the dog to mature properly.<<

Exactly. And, the cancers that can be contributed to by early spaying are much worse and more difficult to detect and treat than mammary tumors.

I'm glad there's a lot more information about this now than there was 10 years ago<s>.

leih merigian

i'll play devil's advocate for a moment....

This puppy will also be a pet right? A lot of people (on this forum, even) say that spaying a mature bitch can make her "bitchy". I have no real experience to back this up as the number of dogs I have had are limited, but in my (disclaimer: VERY limited) experience, bitches spayed as young dogs seem to be less "bitchy"...

At one time I posted a link to a research study about the behavioural changes resulting from spay/neuter at various ages. I had a rescued pregnant bitch and I had her pups (all males) neutered before adoption, at 13 weeks, so I had a sort of vested interest in the pros and cons.

I kept one of the pups and I kept him intact, but he will be neutered soon. I kind of tried to make it the best of both worlds - allow him to grow normally as possible before neutering, but I don't want a "maley male" who might decide to challenge me when he's older either (I just want a nice calm pet) - so I want to neuter him before his so called mental maturity. Ed says in his DVD's that pet dogs should be neutered from 6-9 months old, before mental maturity, to help prevent dominance problems. From what I've read around 10-12 months should be good.

The research paper summarized the behavioural changes to expect by spay/neutering - but the behavioural changes were mostly minor things.

Your first dog sounds like she was a performance dog even though she was spayed early - so I hope my pups are doing well too.

Whatever you decide for your puppy... I think it's great that you are doing your best to make an informed choice.

Hi Angela,

Thanks for your response. Devil's advocates are always welcome<g>.

Of course, my next pup will be my companion as well as a performance dog. I am a very strong trainer/handler, so I'm not overly concerned about possible behavioral changes due to later spaying. I can handle that, if it happens.

You made an interesting point in saying that you just want a nice, calm pet; I, on the other hand, tend to thrive on a project dog and would be pretty bored with that<g>. The good thing is knowing yourself and what you want in a dog, so that you can find a good match. Sounds like you have.

leih merigian

Heh... yep

I have enough "project dogs" with my fosters. I like my own to be calm and not "too much dog"

I admire people who put in the work though, and own and work dogs that are "a lot of dog" - and I guess with a Dutchie you know what you are getting into, hehe.