Hi everyone.

I'm new to this site, and forums. While I am motivated with all the things I've been learning in the past weeks on leerburg.com, realizing how bad I screwed up makes me wonder how I can fix my situation.

I'm the owner of a 19months old Jack Russel Terrier. "Diablo" is my first dog, and I think he teached me quite more so far than I've been teaching him.

To this date, his education has been pretty "old school". Rest assured, I never mistreated my dog. That said, since he was 4months old, Diablo has attended obedience training classes which go by the following lines:
- No treats. A dog will never comply to his master in high distraction environment if he find the distraction more interesting than candies. His motivation must solely come from submission.
- Pet the dog (but not too much) when he successfuly complete a command. Otherwise correct using choker or promise collars.
- Minimize petting at home, this can lead to dominance problems.
- We got explained the basics about crating, but never got the big idea about ground working.
- When the dog can't focus on you on command, guide his look at your eyes using a halter.
- Socialize your dog to as many situations as possible: traffic, animals, crowds, etc.
- and more things along those lines

My dog has been displaying the following behavior issues since the beginning of his training:
- He is very nervous. He gets excited to strangers, and can't stand still to be petted(I do allow people to pet him). He keeps squirrelling and licking.
- His nerves show differently to animals. Every animal is a toy, be it a squirrel, another dog, or a cow. When he spots an animal at a distance, he raises hell (barks/jumps/growls) when contained by a glass(when in the house) or leash. When he gets in this state, any attempt to contain him can lead to snarl, and even bite.
- He is not a dominant dog. He actually has quite weak nerves. He will poke another dog to play with it (try to trigger a chase, he gets a blast from those) but when in presence of a dominant dog, he will lay down, tail between his leg, with a "I'm sorry, sir!" face.
- He also has anxiety issues. Sometimes he will come next to us and begin shivering endlessly. When we crate him, he sometimes lick his paws to blood, even tho we leave him toys to pass time. The shiverring also happens when he senses people are tense around him.
- He displays handler aggression if containing while in high drive. That said, the prong kind of fixes this by lowing his drive by a significant margin even with a low level correction.

No need to tell you obedience training, confined with 7-12 other dogs has never been a good experience so far. Dogs are not allowed to sniff each other. He JUST wants to see the other dogs, especially those he doesn't get along with. Trying to make him obey any command is a fight. I've won every single one of them, but my perseverance apparently doesn't impress him at all. I realize now that when he complies, it's with contempt, not submission.

I've used a prong since a couple days to fix the dog problems. Being a weak nerve dog, it works quite nicely to lower his drive. He had no respect for the halter; but as soon as he got the prong on, he's much more obedient, while remaining quite nervous.

I guess I can't take back what I've done in the past 17months. But here's what I'd like to fix, and I would really appreciate your help for it. Both prong training, and ground/focus working is new to me, and I don't think I'll have a 3rd chance with Diablo.

1)It's evident, I never established a solid bond with him, and I need to regain his trust. This could help him respect me more, and perhaps it could affect his anxiety issues via more confidence? Now that I look back, he had me on his back since day one barking "NO" whenever he didn't do what I wanted. I returned to step one, with more crating an ever even tho I'm confident he won't soil my floor at this point. I also begun focus training with positive reinforcement (I haven't used treats yet, but his favourite prey toy that I always keep away from him, this thing drives him nuts x10 more than a T-bone would ever do). Anything else you could suggest ?

2)He's a smart critter. He understands that "NO" is followed by a correction 1.5 later if he doesn't stop what he's doing. When on leash, I say "NO" whenever he gets 4-6inches in front of me. He instantly pauses to let me catch up on next step. The "NO" correction is high enough for him to fix his position... BUT ... he keeps doing it over and over. Does that mean he isn't taking "NO" seriously enough ? Should I say "NO" only the first time, then go directly to a collar correction when he does it again a moment later? There's nothing interesting is sounding like a scratched disc repeating "NO" over and over every 3-4seconds.

3)What should I do when he gets petted and he gets excited? I do give him a "SIT" command before letting people pet him. If I give him a correction for going hyper when the guy pet him, will he associate the correction to the petting and get "human shy" ?

I tried to keep it as short as possible (heh I think I failed at that as well). I read most of Ed Frawley's article on the subjects, and I realize I made several mistakes. Now I'd like him to recover from them. He deserves much better than that.

Last week-end, he bit me in front of my parents as I was trying to control one of his frenzies with his halter. The day after, he nipped my mother-in-law's toe (not to blood) because I made the mistake of letting him free in her house, and she pushed him with her feet as he was raising hell at the door.

People around me are now suggesting I should put him down because he could be a threat to my 4months old girl. From reading information on this site, I'm very confident I can give him the life he deserves, while keeping my family's security. But I need your help !

Thanks for taking the time to read all of this.

NB: I'm not using the choker and the halter for training anymore. No need to post to tell me to get rid of them.

Morning Francis,
Welcome to the board.
Don't worry, given time your dog will become everything you want.
You covered alot of territory from the past, and I quess that's what stuckout for me, but try and remember; while the past history of a dog can help with getting over some quirks or snags in what you do want to train......it's the past. Gone. Forget it. I think dogs are much better than we are at living in the present. Try to center on the here and now with the dog.
The other thing I rather have in mind is all I heard was train, train, train. Personally, with high energy dogs I've always used their engery for training, rather than trying to suppress it. It serves two purposes, they need to release that energy, and I can shape the behavior at the same time. It bears repeating, high energy dogs NEED to release their energy to stay healthy both mentally and physically. Start with some retrieval games, wear him out. Prey machines (wish I had coined that) love retrieval games. And I think sky high energy dogs respond almost immediately to clicker training............Have you considered agility? Busy dogs love it. It all works for bonding and shaping behavior.
If one thing doesn't work, move to something else to try. You'll find as you go along dog training isn't cookie cutter neat. It's a hodge podge of this and that. Each dog is different, what works for one is ho humm for other. So cherry pick from here and there, use what works for your dog.

Again welcome to the board, you'll find the help you seek here. And I'm sure more knowledgeble people will give you more help then I have......So go out and throw a ball for the dog, have some fun.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

Welcome Francis! Today is a new day leave the past mistakes behind and use the insight you have gained into your dog as your road map for future training. Where to begin? I know it must seem overwhelming.

I would follow as regimented a schedule with Diablo as you can manage. When a dog knows what to expect, it relieves it of some of its anxiety. I would write down a schedule and stick to it as closely as possible. For instance:
Morning:
Let Diablo out of crate to relieve himself, followed by 10 minutes of exercise/play, activities he and you enjoy. Fetch or sniffing around the yard or racing each other or playing tug. Then 5 minutes of marker training. From this moment on assume Diablo knows no commands. From your post, I'm reading he is very confused about what it is you want. I would give this dog the benefit of the doubt that when he is not performing he does not know what you want and leave the physical corrections out of it.

Back to the crate or tethered to you while you attend to household chores. Depending on whether you are working outside the home or not I would try to make sure he has used up a lot of his energy before having to crate him for an extended period of time. I agree with Randy expending that energy in positive ways verse trying to suppress it will go far in creating the dog you want.

First, did you catch this?

 Quote: randy allen

It bears repeating, high energy dogs NEED to release their energy to stay healthy both mentally and physically.

Because that needs to be a daily mantra with a terrier like you have.

Some of the problems you describe will be dialed back with just that.

Why do you allow people to pet him if he hates it? That's not rhetorical; I am asking. I wouldn't. I'd stop that and set the whole issue aside for later consideration after a strong bond is established.

Can we hear details about this before commenting? "He displays handler aggression if containing while in high drive. That said, the prong kind of fixes this by lowing his drive by a significant margin even with a low level correction."

The paw-licking.... how frequent is that? Is it daily?

The constant no-then-correction, no-then-correction for pulling on walks: You see how useless that has been? I would stop that for now. That's with a prong?


Do you use marker training? Why no food (for now)? It's fast to reward. I'd want to get marker training underway, upbeat and fun, no corrections at all in the teaching phase. I'd want to do several short upbeat sessions every day and tire out that terrier brain.

What does this mean? " I realize now that when he complies, it's with contempt, not submission."

You are in the right place. I agree that a lot of mistakes have been made on the advice of other people, but the other posters on the thread are right: You can fix this.

 Quote: Sheila Buckley

...Let Diablo out of crate to relieve himself, followed by 10 minutes of exercise/play, activities he and you enjoy. Fetch or sniffing around the yard or racing each other or playing tug. Then 5 minutes of marker training. From this moment on assume Diablo knows no commands. From your post, I'm reading he is very confused about what it is you want. I would give this dog the benefit of the doubt that when he is not performing he does not know what you want and leave the physical corrections out of it.

Back to the crate or tethered to you while you attend to household chores. Depending on whether you are working outside the home or not I would try to make sure he has used up a lot of his energy before having to crate him for an extended period of time. I agree with Randy expending that energy in positive ways verse trying to suppress it will go far in creating the dog you want.

The tether is going to help with that bond, too, along with positive training. A new day.

 Quote: connie sutherland

Why do you allow people to pet him if he hates it? That's not rhetorical; I am asking. I wouldn't. I'd stop that and set the whole issue aside for later consideration after a strong bond is established.

I'm afraid I misled you on that one. He actually loves TOO MUCH getting petted. He gets extra excited, but it's quite positively. This is especially a problem when children wants to pet him. About the bond issue, I tend to agree that it could cause him to find other humans more interesting than me. I relulanctly have to conceed it's actually most likely the case at this moment.

 Quote: connie sutherland

Can we hear details about this before commenting? "He displays handler aggression if containing while in high drive. That said, the prong kind of fixes this by lowing his drive by a significant margin even with a low level correction."

When my trainer saw that Diablo didn't mind about a choker at all, he showed me his techniques to deal with this using a halter collar:
- When a dog gets excited, he uses the halter pretty much like Frawley would use a dominant collar, by lifting the front paws. But he also puts his hand on the dog's throat as a dominace sing. He releases the dog as soon as he gives up (tails get low, or sits down).
- When a dog refuses to obey a command he knows, he is forced with the halter. Say the dog refuses a "DOWN", I grabbed the halter right next to the dog's lip (he can't bite this way) and forced him down.

Forcing Diablo to obey rather than correcting him for not minding worked pretty well for my trainer, but not for me. This could be a difference in our temperaments. The dog would snarl as soon as I grabbed the halter. He simply had no respect for this technique, and I kind of understand him.

Last week I didn't have his halter on but he began to raise hell when we saw some dogs. I tried to control him with my hands and his choker by raising his front feet and putting my hand under his mouth. It worked, but I got bit in the process. He now has his prong collar on anytime we're outside, this will never happen again.

I called my trainer to tell him I wouldn't use the halter techniques anymore because my dog was becoming increasingly aggressive (I mentioned in my previous post that he nipped at my mother-in-law who tried to push him away from the door with her foot as she was wearing sandals too). I never got bit by this dog before, or even trigger his aggression at all. This trainer was reluctant to prongs because "they hurt the dog", but he got comforted when he saw how I used it. I think he, like basicly everyone in my area, is a bit misinformed about prong collars. You hardly see prongs when I live. All obedience training classes either use choker correction, or pure-positive training. This guy is the only one willing to try new stuff and I think he's as excited to learn about it as I am.

With a prong on, I don't have to force him to mind. I give him a low-level correction (remember he has weak nerves) if he merely looks at a dog too insistently. I didn't have to give him a hard correction yet. If he refuses to obey a "DOWN", I say "NO" and he now quickly lays down. He knows the prong correction is coming.

 Quote: connie sutherland

The paw-licking.... how frequent is that? Is it daily?

This is mostly when we crate him. This is probably a combination of anxiety and boredom. He doesn't care about the bones we give him in his crate, and he can go through a peanut-butter kong in 3minutes.

 Quote: connie sutherland

The constant no-then-correction, no-then-correction for pulling on walks: You see how useless that has been? I would stop that for now. That's with a prong?

This is with a prong, but the correction never comes because he fixes his position as soon as I say "NO". What I was asking is: should I ommit a "NO" and move straight to a collar correction ? Frawley's method preconize to give him a 1.5sec chance to mind, and he actually does... but he gets in front of me again a couple seconds later.

I think this has a lot to do with the fact that I've never done positive/focus training with him. I'm the last thing in the world he cares about when we're out for a walk. He's probably not even doing this out of disrespect, he just finds more interesting stuff than me ahead. I'm however confused if I should work on this problem with treats, prong corrections, or both ?

 Quote: connie sutherland

Do you use marker training? Why no food (for now)? It's fast to reward. I'd want to get marker training underway, upbeat and fun, no corrections at all in the teaching phase. I'd want to do several short upbeat sessions every day and tire out that terrier brain.

I started this week-end! He sure seems to enjoy it. I'll let you know how it goes.

What I was wondering is: I'm beginning with stuff he already knows. "sit, come, stay, down, bark". With this in mind, can you really consider this a learning phase, or should I correct him if he doesn't mind ? I don't want him to get confused with inconsistency in corrections.

 Quote: connie sutherland

What does this mean? " I realize now that when he complies, it's with contempt, not submission."

That was in reference to the halter technique described above.

I'm sorry if I can't always clearly express my concerns, you might've guessed that English isn't my main language.

One more question about the prong: should he have it on him even in the house ? It could be quite handy when he begins to bark at the window, but on the other hand, uncomfortable for him when he tries to sleep when leashed/tethered.

Thanks alot everyone for your advices, please keep 'em coming!

 Quote: francis daigle

When my trainer saw that Diablo didn't mind about a choker at all ...

What does that mean?

 Quote: francis daigle

Forcing Diablo to obey rather than correcting him for not minding worked pretty well for my trainer, but not for me. This could be a difference in our temperaments. The dog would snarl as soon as I grabbed the halter. .

Are you still with this trainer???

 Quote: francis daigle

I never got bit by this dog before, or even trigger his aggression at all. This trainer was reluctant to prongs because "they hurt the dog", but he got comforted when he saw how I used it. I think he, like basicly everyone in my area, is a bit misinformed about prong collars.

Where is this?




I don't understand some of your post and have asked for help with interpreting it.

The paw-licking... how much exercise/training/playing does he get?

If he is on a drag line in the house, or tethered to you, or crated, what behavior in the house requires a prong?

Sorry that I'm not understanding everything. We'll get there.

Here's a question that might put us into the express lane:

Have you thought about one of the Leerburg videos?

http://leerburg.com/302.htm
would be a good choice.

Re-vamping your program with this dog is going to mean really starting over.

And really starting over is going to be a big plus for this dog and any future dogs you may have, I think. (You can see that the kind of training in place now is not successful.)

You came to the right place.

 Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: francis daigle

When my trainer saw that Diablo didn't mind about a choker at all ...

What does that mean?

Diablo will choke himself to death if it means getting one inch closer to his distraction. No amount, or strength of choker collar jerking will take his focus off of his target. And since he usually jumps when he goes berserk, jerking Diablo makes him perform some pretty hazardous figures in the air.

 Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: francis daigle

Forcing Diablo to obey rather than correcting him for not minding worked pretty well for my trainer, but not for me. This could be a difference in our temperaments. The dog would snarl as soon as I grabbed the halter. .

Are you still with this trainer?

Yes I am. I may make it sound like his methods aren't that good, but he wants my dog to improve as much as I do. He's not cruel, but firm. I've never seen him physically hurt a dog.

 Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: francis daigle

I never got bit by this dog before, or even trigger his aggression at all. This trainer was reluctant to prongs because "they hurt the dog", but he got comforted when he saw how I used it. I think he, like basicly everyone in my area, is a bit misinformed about prong collars.

Where is this?

I'm from Québec, Canada. To give you an idea, we have our own "Dog whisperer" show... featuring a purely-positive reinforcement behaviorist. People look at me like I am a butcher when my dog yelps after a low level prong correction.

 Quote: connie sutherland

I don't understand some of your post and have asked for help with interpreting it.

Heh, is it really that bad?

 Quote: connie sutherland

The paw-licking... how much exercise/training/playing does he get?

Up to now, maybe a 30min walk/day in which I practice the obedience moves learned this week.

I know this is far from being enough, and I'm working on it.

I tried the swimming pool today... but he didn't like it at all. I slowly put him in the pool but he kept panicing and reaching the ladder to get out.

Also working on 2ball to make him run, and take him with me on a 15min bycicle run. My biggest problem for exercising him weather. We've had like 4 non-rainy days since July 1st.

 Quote: connie sutherland

If he is on a drag line in the house, or tethered to you, or crated, what behavior in the house requires a prong?

We used to let him roam the house but tieing a 6ft line on his collar. He'd sit next to windows for hours, barking and jumping in the window when anything moved. Now that he's tethered, I just avoid the windows. But I was wondering if it would be a good idea to use the prong to make HIM avoid them, and fix the problem for when I stop tethering him.

 Quote: connie sutherland

Sorry that I'm not understanding everything. We'll get there.

Heh I'm the confusing one. No need to be sorry from your part.

 Quote: Francis Daigle

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

I don't understand some of your post and have asked for help with interpreting it.

Heh, is it really that bad?

I wasn't sure that what I thought I was reading about your trainer's ideas was really what I was reading. It was more surprise at the methods your trainer recommends than a language barrier. I was hoping that some of it was really just a difference in terminology.

Have you considered checking out a Leerburg video or two?