This will probably be long but I'm having an overwhelming experience with a rescue pup.

My husband and I adopted him May 17, 2008 when he was 10 weeks old. He was brought into a rescue shelter and the only history is that much of the litter had been given away, they were all kept outside, and he had been at the rescue for two days when we adopted him. His eyes were gooped up and after checking, I could see he had entropic eyelids. The left was pretty rolled in and the right was minimal. OK, I can deal with that.

Other than the eyes, he looked ok but had thin hair on his belly and he felt sticky/greasy there. The rest of his puppy coat was dull but plush. He was lethargic but it was 110 degrees that day and I attributed this to the heat. We got him in the car, had the AC on him to cool him off and he started pepping up. By the time we got home, filled up a kiddie pool, the little guy was playing and eating and drinking well. The shelter said he had been wormed and received a set of puppy shots. After getting him home, he got a bath and his belly was soft and clean. It took two days for the greasy/sticky feel to return (only on his belly).

Four days later he got in for his first vet check. He started on puppy vaccinations. The vet didn't seem concerned about the thin hair on his belly. A flea check was done and nothing was found but he said the entropic eyelids were such an irritation (lots of goop, tearing and pawing) that he would benefit from tacking. Six days later he went under anesthesia for the procedure. Within the week, he began losing weight. I did poop checks every time and I found a white wiggler one morning in a pudding stool. Went on the Internet and his worm looked like tapeworm. Called the vet and he said to come pick up the wormer. Within 2 days, Dante began losing weight and the worms were everywhere; crawling from his anus and loaded in his poop. Called the vet and he said to keep watching as the medication was ridding him of the worms. By day 4, his spine was showing, hip bones jutting out, and he had intense itching. My pup looked like he was dying before my eyes. I searched the Internet again and the info I found said after a tapeworm treatment, there should be no sign of worms at all. Another call to the vet and I got the receptionist. She confirmed the wormer they gave us was not the right one for tapeworm. She said she thought I had said roundworm. $#@! idiot! Drove back and got the right wormer. Dosage given and within 8 hours, there were no worms on him or in his stool. Weight went up and energy improved but still had itching.

Eye tack came undone. Again, goop-filled eyes with lots of pawing and irritation. After reading a number of articles about cornea damage if not addressed, the second tack was done. Under anesthesia he went. Puppy vaccinations still underway and the belly itching intensified. Into the vet again. Another flea combing was done and nothing found. Now he had a brownish scale under his front legs on his belly. Scrape taken (not deep) and looked under microscope. Vet said it was just natural oil secretion mixed with dirt. This pup is not on dirt. Could be some sort of bacterial infection, he said, so we were sent home with Baytril and Prednisone. I finally summoned up the strength to say, "When will we address the cause and not the symptoms?" He said the Baytril will knock down the cause. There was some relief from the combination of the two drugs but I had never heard of Baytril. Off to the Internet I went and found enough information to make the decision to take him off it after two days. I decided to stop the Prednisone as well.

His diet had been a combination of kibble; Eagle Pack Holistic and Chicken Soup (mixed) every other day and raw most of the time.

I started total raw feeding. Healthy appetite still there, poop was lookin' good.

Another bout of diarrhea started. Foul smelling, covered in mucous and then to watery brown. I fasted him for a day and replaced water with Pedialyte. Day two I boiled chicken and rice, mixed with baby food and he would take it by hand. Internet search lead me to coccidia information. Angry call to vet and I demanded a stool check. Confirmed coccidia. We started Albon. Immediate results and the appetite came back. Still with the intense itching. He couldn't take more than a couple steps without bringing the back leg up to get at his belly and side. Now he started the frantic leg and foot grooming - anywhere he could reach he was at himself. Vet recommended Benedryl. Little to no relief there. An aresenal of pharmecuticals were collecting on my counter. What the hell is going on with my pup? What is my vet doing for him? What am I doing to contribute to the declining health of my pup? Now he was losing hair on his chest, hindquarters and front legs.

Now I'm reading about suppressed immune system and vaccinosis. All those damn puppy shots, wormings, anesthesia, coccidia, pills, etc. My poor pup's dick is knocked in the dirt, I think. I call the first vet and immediately cancel all pending, prescheduled appointments to finish his shots. His "Puppy Wellness Program" (how ironic) is prepaid so we'll address what's remaining later. He has another parvo and I believe his last will be rabies. Am I doing the right thing by stopping the shots?

The rescue group called informing us a littermate came down with parvo, inquired how our pup was doing and stressed that our contract stipulated to have him neutered. I told them I knew what we agreed to but that was on hold until I could get his health up. I'm sure there's a red flag on our file now but that's the least of my concerns at this point.

More research on the net. Thinning hair around the eyes, legs, belly, pending bald patches, intense itching. Does my pup have mange? Tried the Pinna-Penna Reflex test and he didn't bring up a foot. There was no reaction to the test. I switched vets. Two deep skin scrapings were done and more flea checks. Nothing was found but we were sent home with a scrip of 150mg Clindamycin 2x a day and the recommendation of Benadryl. The vet said to try Ivermectin. Exasperated sigh. I told him I wanted to hold off until I could research it. I didn't like what I read.

I went to the health store and picked up pure Neem oil. I bathed him in 3% Colloidal Oatmeal, neem and a little pure tea tree essential oil. Relief from itching for about 4 hours and then he starts up again. He's even waking from deep sleep to scratch. We're doing regular dremel work on his nails to keep them short and blunt to help minimize any more damage.

July 14th I took in another stool sample for analysis and he's now negative for coccidia and no giardia (he never had giardia). He's also clear of worms.

I began the Borax/Peroxide/Water treatment found on earthclinic http://www.earthclinic.com/Pets/dog_mange_cure.html three days ago with a hopeful heart. His itching has not subsided. He's no worse, no better. I'm continuing with the baths, sterilizing his bedding, crate and yard. All stuffed squeakers or any toy with cloth has been washed with bleach and Borax and put away.

Then I found this post last night http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/198062/page/0/fpart/4. Steven's GSD's before photo looks *exactly* like my pup. I read the thread 3 times beginning to end and sent the other half to the store at 8pm last night for the ChlorTrimeton. First dose in last night. Second dose this morning. Is my pup scratching less? I don't know for sure. Should I put more "things" into his system at this point? I'm confused and overwhelmed with what's going on.

There are no vet appointments or pending shots at this time. The second vet has the Ivermectin waiting at the counter for whenever we want to pick it up. I'm tempted at this point but I don't know if I'm making the right decisions anymore. I have a call in to a holistic vet in the area and left a brief history (about 45 seconds of "here's my screwed up pup's problems, please help us.")

Lately his drive and energy is good. His puppy coat is being replaced by smooth, glossy adult hair except where he's scratched and gnawed himself thin. His appetite is superb and his weight is climbing slow and steady (20 weeks, 52.3 lbs). He's going through turkey necks, chicken backs, wings, hamburger and veggie slop. He's getting pure Iceland salmon oil and I upped his vitamin E to 1000 I.U. daily. I'm confused with the Vitamin C info out there (Ester-C v. ascorbic) so he's getting Nature Made C 500mg daily. His stool was soft but formed today so maybe it's too high a dose? He's also getting Mountain High Plain Yogurt, goat's milk 1/2c every other day as a treat and I freeze his puppy teething Kong with a mix of pure pumpkin and the yogurt. His only other treat are tendon chews. He gets fetch play every day and a mile of leash walking every evening.

I'm up for constructive criticsm, advice, any assistance or recommendations at this point regarding his diet, vaccinations, exercise...anything to help and keep us going in a healthy direction.




Edited by Anna McEntire (07/24/2008 06:49 PM)
Edit reason: spelling

Does he have any yeasty smell (not a good yeasty like bread - a kind of sour yeasty) in his armpits? How about his ears? How does it look in there?

What exactly was the result of the Pred? (Step one is a log. )

He doesn't need that much E, but how much fish oil is he getting?

Also, has his scratching broken his skin?

Why did the antibiotic protocol stop after two days? Antibiotics s/b given or not, but not partly.

Waxy-greasy is a classic yeast symptom, but the vet would have seen it. Still..... giving the wrong wormer is a pretty bad vet mistake, IMHO.

Connie, thank you for responding. I'm going to print up my own post and use it as a base for a log. I have a spare notebook so I'll keep a diary on him starting today.

No yeast odor at all. I got my nose right down in him; armpits, ears, toes, everywhere. He has no odor about him whatsoever. His ears look great. They were black and tarry initially on bringing him home. We cleaned that up during his first bath and they've remained clean and odor-free since that time. No greasy feel, no build-up of anything.

I don't honestly know what the result of the Pred was. We got the Baytril/Pred meds and within two days we got the coccidia diagnosis and started his Albon course. All this was on top of being sick for a week on the incorrect wormer. The vet was vaccinating at this time as well. The only med I know for certain was doing its thing was the Albon for coccidia and Drontal when he finally got the correct tapeworm med. All these things were on top of each other or overlapping.

re: His fish oil. I give him 2 tsp a day. The label reads:

Ingredients: Icelandic Salmon Oil, Natural Vitamin E

Guaranteed Analysis Per Teaspoon:
Total Fat - 4.7 g
Saturated Fat - 0.14 g
Omega-3 Fatty Acids - 2,820 mg
DHA (Docosahexaenoic Acid) (min) - 940 mg
EPA (Eicosapentaenoic Acid) (min) - 1,410 mg
Omega-6 Fatty Acids - 470 mg
Crude Fat - 99.9%
Crude Protein - 0%
Moisture - 0.0%

Directions for Daily Use:

For Dogs:
1–10 lbs.: ½ tsp. = 1½ pumps*
10–25 lbs.: 1 tsp. = 3 pump*
25–50 lbs.: 2 tsp. = 6 pump*
50–75 lbs.: 3 tsp. = 9 pumps*
75+ lbs.: 4 tsp. = 12 pumps*



He hasn't broken any skin yet. He developed a small eraser head sized pink/red rash on his chest last night. It hasn't worsened in the past 18 hours. He had a similar rash on 7-21 inside his hind leg. It disappeared within 48 hours. I should also say that he has not had the greasy feel on his belly hair for a few weeks. I included the info in case it was a precursor to what's happening now. His belly hair (what he has of it) has been soft and shiny for a full week or so now. I hope that doesn't change.

I know not to stop antibiotics until they're done but I got scared. The Baytril info really spooked me. The label insert reads it should not be given to puppies from 2 to 8 months of age. Dante was 16 weeks old and his dosage instructions were one 60mg tab 2x per day for 7 days.

Bayer's own pamphlet on animal safety info reads:

"Oral treatment of 15 to 28 week old growing puppies with daily dosage rates of 25 mg/kg has induced abnormal carriage of the carpal joint and weakness in the hindquarters. Microscopic studies have identified lesions of the articular cartilage following 30 day treatments at either 5, 15 or 25 mg/kg in this age group. Clinical signs of difficult ambulation or associated cartilage lesions have not been observed in 29 to 34 week old puppies following daily treatments of 25 mg/kg for 30 consecutive days nor in 2 week old puppies with the same treatment schedule."

"Daily doses of 125 mg/kg for up to 11 days induced vomition, inappetence, depression, difficult locomotion and death."



Needless to say, with everything that was happening and researching the meds Dante was prescribed, I stopped letting this vet treat him and everything he recommended, I stopped.

Since getting him past the coccidia, stopping the vaccinations, steroids and antibiotics and starting omegas and E, this is the first full week he's had good stools (with the occasional soft but formed one). However, the intense itching and hair loss is still present.


Edited by Anna McEntire (07/25/2008 04:34 PM)
Edit reason: add info

 Quote: anna mcentire

I have a call in to a holistic vet in the area and left a brief history (about 45 seconds of "here's my screwed up pup's problems, please help us.")

If it were me, I wouldn't do anything other than what you're doing, until you hear back from the holistic vet. Make sure he/she's a DVM (I learned that from Connie! ) That's my opinion. I definitely would never go back to Vet #1 for anything.

Connie is the resident guru. I'm sure she'll have more helpful advice. Good luck!

Good call to consult a holistic DMV.

Maybe a referral to a derm vet is in order, which you can get from the new vet.

You're giving about 9.5 grams of fish oil. How much does the dog weigh?

I'm with Kori on not returning to vet #1. I would also make very clear why -- particularly the contraindicated antibiotic. (I didn't know that it was contraindicated for young dogs; I'm glad you posted that info.)

I'd also get the chart in its entirety from them.

 Quote: Anna McEntire

I'm going to print up my own post and use it as a base for a log. I have a spare notebook so I'll keep a diary on him starting today.

You will never regret that. You'll have info that you cannot foresee needing right now at your fingertips, forever.

As of right now, where are the itchy spots? Belly only?

Also, does the small chest rash itch? Like Demodex?

Thanks for your support, Kori! (Love the updated shot of Kodee) I'll be certain to make sure of the DVM as well. As of today I haven't heard back after leaving a message on her machine. I've started searching for another.

Connie, he weighed 53.2 last Tuesday. He's probably another pound up now.

Here's a photo of the thinning on his hindquarters. He was thin there when we adopted him but it's really sparse now. The circular hair loss you see there is where I typically find him going at it with his mouth. He does a fast furious nip nip nip action. He loses all focus when he's scratching. He becomes deaf, dumb and blind.

Here's a photo of the little rash that was on his inside hind leg that went away within 24 hours. His chest rash (looked just like the photo) also disappeared last night so I'm thorougly perplexed by that. He is still itchy there. As I write this, I caught him bringing up his hind foot and getting in there to scratch.

Right now his itchy areas are his belly, flanks, chest, front and back legs and occasionally (but not frantically) he'll rub under his chin by sweeping back and forth on the carpet, bedding, etc. Anywhere he can reach with his mouth or hind legs is where the hair loss is. He's always had thin hair around the eyes but otherwise his coat around his neck, head, back, ears and front shoulders looks pretty good. He had white flakes like dandruff for the first month but that's cleared up.

Would the addition of zinc be of any benefit?

I postponed his last two series of puppy shots with one being rabies. He's 20 weeks old today. When do you think he should complete these?

At that weight, I'd give a little over 1 teaspoon of fish oil (about 5 grams) and a 200 IU to 400 IU gelcap of E.

I probably would not do anything else until I had a skin scraping that I trusted, and I would get that asap. That face-rubbing is typical of allergies, but also of demodex, as I believe you mentioned finding on the 'net.

And many of the other symptoms you have mentioned are typical of localized demodex, too, with the isolated lesions (that usually start around 16 weeks, I've read), hair loss, and that greasy skin appearance. I think that hair loss usually starts on the head/muzzle, and you mentioned the eyes.

I'd find a different vet, even if you are unable to find a responsive holistic DVM.

And I'd get that chart from vet #1 immediately. I would probably walk in and wait while they copied it, so that nothing accidentally fell out and neglected to be included in what was given to you. I'd probably review it briefly too, standing there, just to look for each episode of treatment.