Hi all.

I've posted about my two Border Collies previously but this is along different lines, I think.

I just am actually pretty worn down and disheartened. It's affecting my relationship with my adult BC as well as the puppy. I am not having one single ounce of fun at all anymore, it's all just a chore.


My Adult BC is the perfect dog. I rescued her over 4 years ago, when she was about 1.5 years old. She knew NO obedience training and had zero recall. I trained her completely, all the tricks, off-leash recall, down-stay, even fancy tricks. I never had to correct her more than a medium vocal correction... never even a tug on the leash, ever. She grew up having the most lovely manners, very sweet, gentle and loving, follows me around the house wherever I go, no matter where I go.

My husband had been bothering me for a puppy for about a year. Really quite pestering me really, and I told him repeatedly I did not want one. But I thought I could make him happy and gave in. I did give in. So, we bought a little BC puppy from a breeder of working BCs (because I wanted a reputable breeder, not a puppy mill) in July this year.

The second she got home my adult BC changed. She became dominant and bossy, even growling and showing toy aggression to my children when they would try and take a toy away from her. I of course corrected this and she never has done it again (she is really, truly, a soft dog, for me anyway) but she never dared to act like that before the puppy came into the house.

I tried everything, and the Puppy does know to "crate" when I show her a treat... she will run right to the crate. She knows "sit" and even "down". However, she has terrible manners that no amount of correction OR PRAISE for good behavior will do anything about. She rushes out the door despite constant and repeated attempts to stow in the "wait" command. She pulls on the leash. I gave IN and tried a Prong Collar and the first day she minded really well. Then she realized that she didn't care about it, either, and she began pulling against it and ignoring corrections.

I always make sure that my energy is calm and my arm is relaxed when holding the leash. I do not get angry when I correct. In fact, I kind of saw her as a project.

She recently got Spayed - and even though I severely restricted her movement, just being out in the house (tethered to me with a 6ft leash) she /still/ ripped open her spay wound, so the vet glued it back up and suggested I crate her 24/7 with plenty of potty breaks.

So, that's what I did, for the last two weeks... 3 hour breaks and she healed magnificently.. it also seemed to really be getting her on a wonderful potty schedule as she never ever messed in her crate.

Today was the first day she was out for an extended period, and I had to go get my son from the busstop, which ended up being late - so I'm out of the house for like 20 minutes. She had just gone out for a potty 1 hour before. I come back to a huge puddle.

It was such a large puddle that I wonder, was it my adult? It was raining all day and she hates peeing in the rain. She'd come out onto the deck for potty breaks but would refuse to go.

Anyway the issue really isn't the puddle or who did it. I didn't get mad, I cleaned it up and went on my business, I KNEW when I went out and the bus was late I was gonna come home to something, I just felt it :P

The real reason is my disheartened feeling at having zero effect on this "hard" puppy. She has potential, but I did not sign up for this ridiculous existence, I have a job, I have kids and a husband. Unless she is crated? she takes up 100% of my time, watching her, making sure she isn't jumping on stuff, chewing stuff, getting into stuff, chasing the cat (my poor, poor cat)

I just feel like crying for a failure, but I receive no help at home from anyone. Everyone BUT me wanted the puppy and I am the only one giving any attention and work. They all think she's annoying and don't want to have anything to do with her anymore because she's so rambunctious and crazy. They want to say hi to her and pet her, and she goes and jumps (and I correct!) and they're done, don't want anything to do with her.

She is leashed to me when she is not in the crate 100% of the time. She HAS to be. So I see everything she does. But I don't even have the heart to get an e-Collar? As it was when I brought the Prong Collar home I had to explain for 10 minutes to my husband that it was humane.

I don't want her, but I also totally know that dogs are NOT disposable. She's a fantastic beautiful dog, but I feel on the end of MY rope. Can I please get some help? I just want to cry.

How old is this puppy? What you are describing sounds like pretty normal, high energy puppy behavior... (remember, your older bc was already 1 1/2 years old when you got her, so you missed all the crazy puppiness.

what specific things do you need help (advice) with??

Lizzie,
you're not a failure - you just added a new puppy to your household and changed the pack dynamics, to which your older BC is adjusting to.

And it really sounds as though your puppy needs to be exercised to the point of exhaustion ( I know, easy for me to say when it sounds like you already have a very busy schedule ).

You've fallen into the "Mother will take care of the puppy" trap where a family basically pressures the main family care giver to get a dog, and then they don't help at all - man, we've seen that a hundred times and my heart goes out to you, that's rough.

I'd recommend reading Ed's writings about pack behavior, they might give you some ideas about handling your older BC.

As far as the puppy, I'd have a family meeting and express how disappointed you are with the other family members in regard to their lack of helping you - maybe you could put them in charge of the puppy exercise program to get you some relief there.

Good luck, I hope things improve for you there!

I'm a little confused. You say you tether her, but yet you have to watch her all the time or she gets into things and tears stuff up, etc.? A tethered puppy cannot get into things unless the tether is too long or you are not paying attention. Have you ever raised a puppy before?

She is being allowed to roam the house free despite being so hyper and getting into everything?

What methods are you using to train her? Have you actually taught her to walk at heel or to sit for being petted?

She sounds like a typical, and nice, puppy! Does she have good food drive? If you got her in July... that makes her 4-5 months (ish?) old, correct? She is a baby Calm down and take a step back. Breathe, relax. This is a baby and you are trying to treat her like she is an adult. She was not born with "human manners" she is a puppy, she needs to be shown how to do what you want her to do or she will never understand.

I recommend you read up on marker training and
stop comparing your "perfect" ADULT dog to an untrained puppy

You can correct what you consider to be bad behavior but it is most effective to show the dog what you DO want them to do and reward them for doing things RIGHT, vs only correcting for what you consider to be wrong.

it sounds like you and your husband really need to have a heart to heart.
Especially since it was his idea to get the puppy and he is having zero to do with the little one.

Unfortunately, because you got your other dog at 1.5 years, she was past her high drive/herding dog puppy stage.
To me, you have a normal BC puppy on your hands. Unfortunately, you don't have the time to do everything you have to do with this pup right now.

I wouldn't call it a failure. Call it a learning experience.
Dog's ARE NOT disposable, you are absolutely correct. But if you don't have the time to work with this pup in the way it needs, it's not only not being fair to you, but not being fair to the pup either. Buying a pup to make your SO happy is not really the right reason to bring a new pup into your household.

You have two choices, and before i go any further you have to decide wether or not you really want to keep this pup, or re-home her.

And I will say there's nothing wrong with coming to the realization that you have now bitten off more than you could chew and should find a new home for the new little one.

Don't consider it a failure. But think hard and long about what road you want to take.

Time and effort can change things for the pup, but you have to be on board 100% in order to do it, as well asy our family.

Liz,
How old is the dog now? If my quess is right, I'd say the dog is much too young for a pinch collar.
I've never had the pleasure(?) of having a BC myself, but I know high energy, heavily driven dogs can be a challenge. Have you done any marker training with the pup? Look thru the site you'll find all kinds of directions and info on how it works. High energy dogs respond almost immediately to clicker training, once again all the info is availiable here.
You'll be far happier with the results from positive reinforcement training then the straight ahead negative compulsion venue you're using at the moment.
Redirection....redirection.....redirection. It's all a chance to show the dog the right way.

Welcome to puppyhood!

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

i'll echo what randy said....it sounds like your puppy is too young for a pinch. and positive reinforcement makes things fun.

i can understand it must be hard for you though, especially if you're shouldering all the care alone.

if it helps....i have a puppy possibly the same age as yours - 4.5 months - and maybe it's just a matter of expectations. puppies don't have the longest attention spans or periods of concentrations, they just haven't developed for it. but they'll grow up eventually

and if it makes you feel better....neb was doing magnificently with potty training. i was SO proud. then we had a couple of accidents....excitement....but it'll happen. one of the best pieces of advice i ever got, b/c it helped me put things in perspective, wasn't about my pup but about my female, but it was that dog training isn't linear. but overall, it sounds like the potty training is going well, and you can keep building on your strengths and foundation.

i also have a very soft adult dog - he's a big puddle of goo, really - and you do get used to different dogs responding differently and needing different things (i also have a relatively hard adult).

She is 5 months old, so all your guesses were correct!

Yes, she is tethered to me when she is out of the crate, but she does get into things when I walk around the house. It's like one big party of corrections, it's all I do. She listens when I call her name but most of the time she could care less if I show her a toy. I use treats only for when she gets into her crate, so I'm afraid to use them for any other aspect of training because I'm afraid if they become boring to her, she'll stop getting in the crate so well. She gets really bored by stuff easily, the only thing that she loves daily is her Everlasting Treat Ball.

And you're right, I got my older gal at the age I wanted, NOT a puppy. I didn't want a puppy, I knew they were a huge time commitment and I caved in to serious whining from my husband. And you're right, it's not fair that he doesn't do any work with her, but he works outside the home and he just doesn't have time/inclination. My job is at home, so I'm here all the time.

I did stop using the Prong Collar, because it was just not working, she completely ignored it. She responds better to me saying her name. I have finally gotten my husband to stop giving her attention and love when she jumps all over him (when he gets home) so I can get her to behave better and stop jumping up on people. She doesn't even try it with me - that's a good thing, right?

I like the idea of exercising her to the point of tiredness, but how much can you walk a puppy? And in the last two weeks anyway I haven't been able to do anything, with her spay wound all healing up. That's over at least. How long of a walk can I take her on?

And I think it really is the fact that I trained my old girl all by myself, seriously, everything, she didn't even know 'sit' or anything --- but she was /so/ willing to listen to me and eager to please just because (I never used treats, only for off-leash long distance whistle recall) that I guess she spoiled me?

I just feel like nothing I am doing is making any impact and that my little girl just walks all over me, even though I have taught her some things, I guess I am not taking the "couple steps back" that happen sometimes in stride... I guess I'm being prideful about my complete success with my older BC?

I just have very little time to do anything else other than deal with her, and its making it very difficult to do my job, because I don't want to crate her all the time when I am home, and can she really be that happy tethered to me while I work at my computer during the day and she lays at my feet? My older BC is perfectly fine with that... but I hate to think that she's bored to death.

Maybe I'm overthinking? I just feel awful about it, and not having any fun. I don't think it's a horrible thing to want to have fun with a puppy.

You're not having any fun, because you have no idea how to live with a puppy.

Please don't take that as an attack, it's just an observation.

Puppies can't get into things they can't reach.
Yes, it's a pain to puppy-proof your house, but you only have to do it once (and then keep things put away), and in the end, you save time because you aren't constantly correcting the dog, or picking up their messes.

Puppies are obnoxious.

Stop measuring your baby to your adult dog's standards, it isn't fair.

Take a deep breath, have a long talk with the hubby, and decide whether or not you want to keep this dog.

If you don't, call the breeder, explain, and take the puppy back while it's still young enough to have a good shot at home.
A reputable breeder will take their dog back.

BUT I don't think it needs to come to that.
I think you need to spend some time reading, quite comparing dog A to dog B, and learn to laugh at thigns a little.

Puppies are little terrors.
(Trust me, you'll look back on it all with laughter and a tear in your eye, when this pup has gone on to greener pastures.)

Working BCs from observations from farmers who I've known who owned them can be a pandora's box to deal with. Add in normal puppy/teenage antics and it's enough to make any sane person cry.

As much as I hate to suggest it as I don't do this with my own pups I did know someone who had 6 BC's on a working dairy goat farm who simply didn't allow her dogs inside her home until they earned it through good behavior much in the same way my dogs earn unsupervised uncrated time in the house. When I asked her about it she just blankly stated she wanted a good relationship with her dogs AND a nice home and true to form they were award winning herding dogs and yes, she had a nice home. Only two of her dogs at the time were allowed indoor time with a crate and only one of those allowed out of crate off leash and only partially attended. Outdoors they were either working, training, or in large extra buck pens. As much as the bunny hugger in me could not have a dog that was strictly outdoors, I must admit, she did have happy, well behaved dogs who lived for activity as most BCs do, and wasn't falling apart from the seams from stress.

I guess this issue I'm seeing is that you're setting this pup up for failure with unreasonable expectations and a lack of preparation. Someone mentioned puppy proofing, my thought at this point is that if you cannot walk from room to room without correcting your dog on a lead then it is setting up your dog for failure by leaving things where she can chew on them and not telling her what she can chew on (I like pig hooves for that.) Your dog has energy and she will use it on something, you have to provide that outlet or she'll make it herself.

You need to get on the same page as your husband for training. It's unfair for one of you to have rules (like the no jumping up thing) and the other to encourage it. As far as exercise at this point I would encourage you to teach her to treadmill or anything else you can do to provide her movement and something to occupy her brain so you can work with her when she is a little tired.

I truly wish I had an "easy" button for you but as with most dog problems most of it is deciding how you wish to live with your dog. If this change is too much for you to handle right now I'd talk it over with your husband and as others have suggested consider returning the dog to the breeder or if the breeder for some amazing reason can't take her consider BC rescue.

Best of luck,

Melissa