Ok now I have read some posts about children and puppies. See this is what I have noticed with Kane. Last few days I have noticed how hes been acting around my kids. There has been a few times that he has made a yelp/bark at them if they accidentaly bump into him, or once when my daughter grabbed his collar to move him. Now hes not nipping or bitting, or growling but this is kind of worring me. I feel that he thinks his rank is higher than theirs. Now hes not allowed on the couch, or in the bedrooms to sleep. He does follow me in there if Im getting laundry and the sort, but follows me right out. In fact he follows me everywhere, even to the bathroom and if I dont let him in he will wait at the door until I come out. If I let him in because Im brushing my teeth etc. he will lay next to me. I also try to make sure the kids walk through doorways before he does. But this can sometimes be a little hard with 5 kids from 12 months - 6yrs. (Like with the little ones) I also feed him after I feed the family. Now I dont want to correct him too much since I want to do bite work with him, I have however scolded him when he has done this and he just looks up at me. He acts as though he just doesnt want to be bothered about the kids. Now I understand that children must respect a dog and his space, but this isnt happening while hes sleeping or eating etc.
(Its funny because at first I thought he was amazing that he was so gentle with them) Which he still is gentle, but when he doesnt want to be bothered I fell this is his way of warning them.

Any ideas on if this is a rank issue or not? Maybe Im making more out of it, but with so many kids around he needs to know his place. So any comments and suggestions are welcome.

One more question... a little off the subject. Since we have gotten Kane he has tried his hardest to terrorize our cat. I have put him in his crate and would spray him when he barked and all that like Ed recomends. Seemed to do better no mare barking and acting crazy. Well in the house he goes crazy after the cat. there have been times that I have leashed him to my chair so he cant chase him and he settles down for a little while. Now outside is a different story. the cat is outside only these days for behavior we cant seem to correct. If the dog sees or smells him its on! He chases and pins him down and starts to chew on him. I have to go and break it up. During the chase I call him (which doesnt work) and then go and get him off of the cat. I have also tried leaving a line on him to grab him easier and this doesnt work either because the second he has he goes after the cat. There have been times I have sat out there and held on to him and he eventually calms down and will lay down and ignore him. When I let him go he still seems fine and not bothered by the cat and before you know it he calmly walks up to him as though hes just going to sniff him and then he freezes and darts after him. Is there anyway to get them to get along? Im afraid Im going to come home to a dead cat. I dont think hes trying to hurt him, but he puts his mouth over the cat and gently chews on him. I know he could probably kill him right then and there if he wanted to, He will chew and bite on him until the cat cries. I dont know how to correct this without strongly correcting the dog. Now I know how most of you feel about a prong collar on such a young dog, but in the house I did use a prong on him. He was chasing the cat so bad in the house it was wrecking the house like what you would see on the cartoons. One pop didnt even faze him so I popped again but with alot more strength and this time he yelped and calmed down. But went after him about 10 minutes later once I took the collar off. Now I dont want to use the prong on him, unless its a must. I did have to use it one other time on a wakl when he tried to chase a car. This did seem to help, eitehr that or he just realizes it more fun to explore other things. I really dont want to dampen his sprit. The prong hasnt even fazed him. I assume my Kane has a high pain tollerance, but this can be a problem with the cat. Any suggestions? I have tried the spray bottle, shaking a can. But when hes in drive after the cat forget it.

So Im asking for your oppinions on how I may correct this. Have I done something wrong when introducing him to the cat? I did it the way Ed mentioned. What about the kids... am I doing something wrong there too? Thanks for you replies in advance.

IMO, nothing you described sounds like a rank problem. If anything I know for a fact how young children (and you have several) can terrorize a young dog. Maybe he yelped because his foot got stepped on or something when they "accidentally" bumped into him. As far as the cat, your witnessing your dog's prey drive which is genetic.

Is he roaming free or is he crated?

The best way to avoid unnecessary corrections is to control his environment. That means unless you are 110% focused on interacting with him he should be in his crate. It doesn't take long for mistakes/accidents to happen. You want all of his initial experiences to be positive ones. Constant chasing and correcting are not positive. Children hurting him albeit accidentally can effect his perception of them. Not to mention the cat - Is it declawed?

I don't like the idea of him following you around with no real purpose. That's just MO. I feel that if he's outside of his crate interacting with you it should be constructive. If your doing laundry then your not going to be aware of what he's doing. Puppies with good drive can grab stuff off the counter, bite into a electrical wire or swallow things before you know it. They're inquisitive and rambunctious. That's not their fault. Remember that puppies are ALWAYS learning, not just when your training them. You have to become aware of what your teaching every moment he's with you. Be careful what you teach your dog - it can come back to haunt you later on.

BTW: When I say constructive, I don't mean "learn this, learn that". Have fun with him. Play hide and seek. Build drive. Exercise his mind with learning games. Become the center of his world. It's not so much a matter of dominate and submissive as it is leader, follower. You must assume the role of leader in such a way that you build his trust and confidence in you to want to follow. That means protecting him. Schedule a time when your children can interact with him under your strict supervision. Let them know what is and isn't allowed before you ever get him out. You'll see his appreciation of them increase as you make the session more fun for him. Less rough-housing from the kids. He'll soon be bigger than them so you don't want rowdy games with them to continue when he's seven, eight months old. As far as the cat, now this again is JMO but I only see this getting worse. If the cat runs, he will chase. If he didn't I'd be concerned about his drive. So my suggestion would be to keep the two separate. I don't believe that he's chasing the cat as a means of killing it as prey nor do I believe that he is rationally deciding not to hurt the cat, it just hasn't happened yet. It's just prey drive. Quick movement simply triggers the chase.

Best of luck.

I think all the above answers are great, but I will add you need to teach the kids how to inter-react with the dog/puppy. Have them help train him in OB, but first you must train the kids.

They need to be consistance "Sit" needs to be "Sit" everytime, not "park it". "Come" needs to be "Come" not "Over here", so teach the kids how to train and have safe fun with the dog. Playing fetch and or have one lay out tracking steps with weiners, the other release the puppy as the track layer hides. When the puppy find the child, have the child give him a palm full of weiner (two or three slices), both kids pet him and say go boy/girl.

Show them the way, and they shell not part, not much anyway. Kids will be Kids. Dogs, are dogs.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

5 kids from 1yr old to 6 yr old, Wow! isn't that some kinda record. Just kidding. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Really only the 5 and 6yrs old are gonna be able to comprehend what dog training is about, somewhat. I'd just work on Ob myself and train the oldest and the puppy, to use the commands.

All the kids can inter-react but only under your strict watchful eye. Kids that age like to poke eyes and pull tails and ears, even bite them.

They sometime may fall on the pup, choke the pup trying to hug it or trying pick it up. Some will pick things up and hit the puppy. All this is done cheek to cheek far too close for you to stop it, unless you stop it ahead of time. They don't know.

You really need to be quick and watchful, I'd limit the time they spend with th dog to petting and holding the leash, their just too small to understand, maybe the 5/6 yr. old can train with you.

LOL Don. Well not all the kids are mine thank God! I love them but its nice to send them home after a long day. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The reason I have him around the kids so much is because this is my work, plus I thought it would be good socialization for him. But I do also understand about his space and protecting him etc. Now as most people with kids know... they can take a lot of time from you. I do have them on a schedule where they play in the playroom, then outside time, movie time, and nap time etc. But eben with all these they need alot of supervisions other than naptime I have more time to work with Kane one on one. As it is now Kane is bigger than all the kids at almost 5 months. This is how an average day goes. Kane is let out of his crate at 7:00 to go outside and potty... he then comes in the house and we have time together until 7:30 when my first 2 children show up. Both 2 years old. They watch cartoons until 8:30 and my 1 yr old shows up and they have breakfast. By that time my 6 yr old daughter and 18 mo. old some wake up and join us to eat. Then after that they go in the play room to play. They go outside to play around 11:30 and then come in to eat lunch about 12:00 an then my 4 yr old shows up. Right after lunch (around 12:30-1:00) they take a nap until about 3:30 sometimes 4:00 if they play hard. Then they wake up sancks etc and then have movie time and then outside again until the parents come. Now usually Kane is in the house most of the time. Unles its feeding time...he goes in his crate to eat, and when I feel the kids are too wild in the house I put him in there until I move them to the play room etc.

So do you guys recommend any sort of schedule? Id hate to leave Kane crated for too long. If I put him outside he constantly scratches and paws the door wanting in.

At one point I thought it was a way of bonding when a dog follows you all around the house. So I should discourage this by crating him at all times other then when were playing? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Seems that when I do this he seems very hyper in the house, obviously becasue hes excited. But I would like him to feel calm in the house.

As far a the cat I cant separate them since the cat is an outside cat...even if I put the cat in the front he will still come into the back yard. Now I know its in his nature to chase the cat since he is a fun moving target but I guess theres nothing I can do about it. It is a good thing for him to show such good prey drive, but I guess theres no hope for the cat and dog to live "peacefully." Even if the cats not running he will chase him. If he even smells him and he will charge the cat and the cat will just sit there until the dog pins him and then try to escape.

So again having Kane in the house when I cant spend time with him is a big problem? I guess maybe thats where is all comes from... too much time just hanging out in the house?

Now with OB Kane will sit and down for a treat. But will try to jump and take it from your hand first. Now I know I need to get Flinks Focus tape, but can anyone try to explain how to get Kane to focus on me more, until I can get the tape? When I have his toy he is very focused on the toy but isnt looking at me.

Also I have had a few people such as my boyfriend and his friends which are like family to me tell me that Kane will only listen to me and no one else. Now I kind of like that since I dont think he should have to listen to everyone nor do I want him to listen to anyone other that "his family" But my boyfriend isnt really a big animal lover. He does like animals but hes not like one of us so he does not participate in any of Kanes training nor do I want him to since he dosent know one single thing about a dogs way of learning or anything about animals for that matter. Now is it a bad thing that Kane listens to only me? Any pointers on what I could be doing with Kane more on OB? Should I be working on other commmands, or should I get my daughter envolved more? How do I prevent him jumping and trying to take it from her?

Sorry for rambling on but you all have good advice and make good points... I can see now that its not so much a rank issue rather than just wanting some respect. Is there signs I should be aware of if the time comes that there may be a rank issue? What should i watch for, or what are the most common signs? again I thank you all for the great advice!

Chastity,

I think your over thinking the crate issue. I also have a five month old right now that will be my competition schutzhund dog. He spends all of his time away from me in his crate. This builds anticipation. When I go to let him out he's pumped up about it. He knows that when I come for him it's on. I give him all of my attention and make the time that I give him the best time of his life. So, that said, he looks forward to being with me. He doesn't get use to wandering or getting into to things that would require a correction from me. Never allow your dog to learn to ignore you. The dog should drive the handler. If you allow him to loose interest in you OB will more difficult later on.

Also, I'd like to point out that a five month old puppy doesn't need quantity but quality time. When we've finished playing I'm careful to end all sessions on a high note and then it's right back to his crate. Example, a new command that he's learned and executes well or a drive building exercise where he catches the prey item after giving his all. This gives him a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment and even more importantly doesn't allow him the opportunity to get bored with the game or me. Puppies have very short attention spans. Keep it lively and stop before he wants it to. This builds frustration and the next time you play, he'll play even harder.

I didn't comment on the prong collar in my first reply but I feel like I should. I'd be VERY, VERY careful about a prong on a puppy this age. Even if he grows up to be a hard dog it could really diminish his drive if not used correctly. This time in development is for building a bond with your puppy and encouraging as much drive as possible. Let him be a little crazy. If you intend to use this dog for schutzhund be aware that it's easier than you might think to squash drive. First your pup must understand what a correction is and why he's getting one. Your correction must be just and it must be timed perfectly. If the pup doesn't understand why he's getting popped you could easily damage your relationship with him. Just use your head with this. My pup will not see a prong for some time that's JMO.

I agree that you should not allow your boyfriend to interact with the training if he doesn't understand your goals. Some may disagree but I feel very strongly that puppies that will be working dogs should not be around people that don't know how to interact with them. They're raised much differently than a household pet. I socialize my pup. He's with me all the time. I take him to work with me, etc... But I control who he meets and how that meeting takes place. I make sure the person understands what I'm doing, that he's mouthy, and energetic and may pounce on them. If they do not like that sort of thing or if I think they might do something negative to discourage him - it's simple, they don't get to meet him.

Lastly, things other than OB that you could be doing. First, don't discount OB, it's what wins trials many times. Keep it motivational and rewarding for him. Apart from that I'd suggest you begin teaching him to track if you haven't already. It's one of the most rewarding things I do with my dogs. It's just you and him and the track. You might find that if you haven't tracked a dog before it can be a challenge. It'll definitely give you something to do. You learn to read his body language and gives you a deeper understanding of the way your puppy learns.

Just some suggestions.

C. Tyler,

You run a daycare at home, my ex wife does that she also raised a puppy around her kids, he probably wasn't as prey driven as your 5 month old puppy, maybe. But the kids loved this dog and they played like kids, he ate treats among them and their was never a problem, with exception of the over feed the dog with their treats. But he never growled or nipped any of the kids.

He would growl and bark at any stranger coming near any of the kids, he would also try to herd them away from the back gate leading to the front yard, or bark to tell on them. Thats was a no no, leaving the back yard. All this to say that this kind of situation can work, but it needs to be closing supervised.

As for Ob you and Kane need to get the routines down first before the 6 yr. old get into the act.
Teaching the sit before getting petted would work, with the child.

I'd also not give treats while teaching Ob, because then you have to train away fom treats. Unless he won't perform without treats I'd streer away from that, it just adds another step. Notice that you won't have to worry about him jumpingup to take the treat. If he has a good sit or down/stay he will stay in place until you release him. I like to treat at milestones, if he stays put for 3 minutes when his loongest stay was 2 minutes its time for a treat and praise. Thats just me, now I am aware that some dogs willonly work for food.

As for animal aggression My male Gsd suffered from that because he was attacked by the neighbors dobbie when he was 5-6 months. This will owrk on the cat to, animal aggression is animal aggre... After you get his Ob on leash together so that he understands that a correction means pay attention. On leash train the dog to stay in his sit/down as the cat walks by or sits near. I mean the cat is out range from the dog and the dog is at your side on leash. Any attempt to alert on the cat, gets a pop of leash then you bounce the ball and send him on a short game of fetch. Redirecting him until he ignores the cat and pays attention to you. This is enhanced Ob with a heavy distraction, it will take time.

But I can place my dog in a down, with charging growling dogs behind a fence, he will ignore them
to the point were I can drop the leash and step off. And the dog stays in place, it takes time but it can happen. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Don: "I'd also not give treats while teaching Ob, because then you have to train away fom treats. Unless he won't perform without treats I'd streer away from that, it just adds another step. Notice that you won't have to worry about him jumpingup to take the treat. If he has a good sit or down/stay he will stay in place until you release him. I like to treat at milestones, if he stays put for 3 minutes when his loongest stay was 2 minutes its time for a treat and praise. Thats just me, now I am aware that some dogs willonly work for food."

I disagree with that statement. IMO, the best way to train obedience commands to a young puppy is through motivation and drive. Some dogs have excellent food drive and it would be a shame not to capitalize on this and use it to your advantage. Dog's generally don't love obedience because it is often associated with harsh and or nagging corrections that are often poorly timed by new trainers. My question then is when does the dog get his paycheck? Very few dogs will be motivated and stay in drive to work for handler praise alone. I found it interesting that Bernhard Flinks during his seminar says he uses a ball to put his dog in drive right before an obedience routine, then discreetly gives it to a family member as he is approaching the trial field, does his routine, comes back to the car and boom instant reward for the dog. Meanwhile the dog thinks he has the ball the whole time and works hard for the reward. 2 to 3 minute sits for a puppy probably seems like an eternity. They get distracted and bored. Training sessions should be only a few minutes at a time for a young pup anyway. I realize everyone has their own style of training, this is JMO on the matter.

John, I think training with their favorite toy is different from training with food. Like I mentioned I'm aware that some dogs will only work for food, then of course its ok to use food. Others get too distracted by food, for example.

I have a Rottie that is dilgent and steadfast for her level of training. With just praise and or her toy she works fine. But if you use food to treat/praise after an excirses, say in OB she losses focus and breaks the routine, too quickly. So food is too big a distraction in her training.

Now she will down stay and wait to be release with food 4-6 foot away, that took months. But a quick sit for a treat, she is slow to sit, but fast to approach for the food. Without a treat she sit faster. Each dog is different.

I've seen dogs that just won't work unless you have food. I personally like dogs that work for my praise, and attention.

But I do agree totally with use whatever motivates the dog to get the best results.