Hey folks,

This is my first attempt at any time of real obedience with a dog. I have a 5 month old boxer. I purchased "Puppy 8 weeks/8 Months" not long after getting him and then recently purchased "...Dog Obedience" from Leerburg. I've been doing my best to apply all of the information in the tapes and I feel I'm doing fairly well.

The puppy comes with me to work every day and when I have the chance I always take him outside and do a few minutes of work with him. He sits, comes and downs. Even under distractions he has been minding pretty well. Occasionally I will administer a mild correction with the flat leather collar that he wears and that usually gets his attention when he is not minding.

I am pretty confident that the puppy knows/understands the commands because he executes them with pretty damn good efficiency...even under distraction.

Now here is my problem. I purchased him two new collars today. A nylon because his neck looks a little agitated, I thought maybe the leather was uncomfortable for him and he's been scratching...and also a new leather.

I just took him for a short walk and not thinking, I didn't swap his nylon for the leather. We went to the corner store and when we arrived I told him to DOWN. Hoping that he might stay in the down while I was in the store...but not expecting it, lots of distractions etc. He was VERY hesitant to go into the down...the ground is cold and I suspect that is why he did not want to down. But he did.

When I came out of the store, he was out of the down. I told him to down and HE OUTWARDLY REFUSED. I have never seen him do this and it shocked me. I tried giving him a correction and he laughed at me.

I wasn't sure what to do, but I was a little upset at this point. Besides being in a different place than usual, there were no distractions. I told him down and he refused, so--maybe I made a mistake here--but I tried grabbing him by the collar and pulling down, forcing him into the down...he started nipping at my hand and STILL REFUSED.

I'm by no means perfect, I'm just a newb at this and I want to do well...that's why I'm posting here, hoping for some more insight.

I feel the dog made a DECISION to not mind in this situation, and if my guess is right, it would have been the perfect time to introduce him to prong...so the mistake is mine. I just want to see what more experienced people have to say.

thanks alot.

There are several things that I would comment on here, but I'll try to be concise.

I think you taught him that when he is tied up in front of the store and he downs, you will leave him. The down out of sight is pretty advanced for a five month old pup, and it is something that needs to be worked up to. I think you set him up for failure this time.

I'm not trying to be rude, but personally, I would never leave any of my dogs unattended in public like that. Not only is it a violation of the leash law, but any yahoo could steal your dog or turn him loose to get hit by a truck, or mess with him (teasing, feeding him junk food, etc.). Just not a good idea.

I think you taught him that when he is tied up in front of the store and he downs, you will leave him. The down out of sight is pretty advanced for a five month old pup, and it is something that needs to be worked up to. I think you set him up for failure this time.
I don't think the question here is about him failing to execute the command while I was in the store. As I mentioned, I did not expect him to stay down, although I have been working that with him and he has been doing good--that was NOT the issue. I did not expect this of him.

I thought that it took a good 30 repetitions for a dog to learn a certain thing, and I have tied him up outside of the store maybe...3 times. So he must be a real quick learner.


I'm not trying to be rude, but personally, I would never leave any of my dogs unattended in public like that. Not only is it a violation of the leash law, but any yahoo could steal your dog or turn him loose to get hit by a truck, or mess with him (teasing, feeding him junk food, etc.). Just not a good idea.
I appreciate you reminding me of leash law and all that other stuff, but fact of the matter is I could SEE the dog the entire time I was in the store, otherwise I would not have left him tied up. Besides, my wifes dog got ran over not too long ago so I know how that goes--and I will never do anything to put myself in that type of situation again...part of the reason I am here, trying to get useful information.

The real issue here is that when I walked back outside and told him to DOWN, he outwardly refused. Do you have any insight on this specific aspect of the problem?

First off, by leaving a pup after you said he was hesitant to go down, you should have realized conditions weren't right for training. He was uncomfortable, nervouse, distracted, etc. By leaving him you set yourself up for failure and only taught him he could ignore your command if he so desired. MOST people try to move to fast with training. If he refused to down when he was commanded, then the training went to fast. There wasn't enough motivation, posative or negative, for him to down and INMO, he's to young for compulsion. He's a pup. Back up, enjoy him and be paitent.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Old earth dog Bob Scott:
First off, by leaving a pup after you said he was hesitant to go down, you should have realized conditions weren't right for training. He was uncomfortable, nervouse, distracted, etc. By leaving him you set yourself up for failure and only taught him he could ignore your command if he so desired. MOST people try to move to fast with training. If he refused to down when he was commanded, then the training went to fast. There wasn't enough motivation, posative or negative, for him to down and INMO, he's to young for compulsion. He's a pup. Back up, enjoy him and be paitent.

But at what point do you say--"Hey, the dog knows what the command is, and he's not obeying"?

I'm really "iffy" on this aspect because I feel like it could be a really big problem if I don't handle it right.

When IS IT time to figure that the dog knows and refuses to obey and correct him for it? And when do you make the switch from it being "TRAINING" to immediate reaction to orders?

While not as experienced as Lisa or some of the other members of this board are, I will offer my .02.

Sometimes dogs do that, like, refuse to follow a command. They're dogs, not robots. They have a mind and will of their own, sometimes contrary to yours.

So, you have two options when this happens. Get offended, take it personally, and then compel the dog to do what you say. Believe me, I've been there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It can be frustrating, the dog knows what to do, and is refusing. But... and this is speaking from experience: a novice, using force at the wrong time for the wrong things is likely to create more problems than solve. If I could go back in time, I would use half the force that I used to get my first dog under control, and he WAS outta control (shelter mutt). I knew nothing about timing, or adjusting corrections, or reading the dog, or of drive theory. I knew nothing about praise, or of working with the dog, or of the right time to start compulsion.

Your other option is to THINK: why did the dog refuse? you stated that he was hesitant from the onset: why? I think that being 'shocked' at your dog's behaviour and feeling that your pup is 'laughing at you' sounds a little harsh. Dogs don't make moral decisions, that is for humans to screw up; they do what is in their best interest. So at that point, the dog made a decision to do what was in its best interest (as any good dog would do <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ); refused to lie down on the cold hard floor, and see what the boss would do.

So, as far insight is concerned, I would continue working the dog motivationally, praise, teach the dog, through bonding and games and access to fun stuff, that it is in his best interest to follow. And RELAX, your dog is still young, there are a good may years for proofing and disobedience and corrections and compulsion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think it's just a matter of recognizing maturity. That's hard to describe in somme one elses dog. At 5 months, most dogs aren't mature yet. their usually still teething which can be stressful for some. At 10 1/2 months my GSD is still a big pup, and handler soft to boot. I rarely gove him any obedience commands unless he's in drive (having fun), but that's easy to do with him. He's almost always in drive <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> . I also like to teach two sets of commands. "Go lay down" means he can go to the other side of the room if he wishes. If he breaks a "go lay down" at some point, I don't care. "Platz" means right now but I'm still building distractions, and wont do it unless I know it's a controlled situation. He's doing great, but I don't set up for failure. I've had some hard a$$ little terriers that needed firmness much earlier. Not knowing your dogs breeding, I would still doubt that a Boxer is ready for to much compulsion at his age. Ed's obedience tape is a good one but you have to be able to know when the dog is ready. If your dog has lots of drive, the Flinks Drive Focus and Grip tape is wonderful for teaching the dog to do what you tell it to and the dog is having funat the same time. It's not just a sport/protection dog tape. Any dog with that loves a ball, food, etc can be taught to work for what it wants and not just because it has to. That comes with maturity and we have to learn that in each dog.

My dog has tremendous food drive. He's insanely attentive when he's "working" for food.

Thanks for the insight, I guess maybe I jumped the gun? I was and am frustrated that the dog didn't listen when he normally does, even under distractions....I found it pretty odd.

Why give the dog a command you cannot reinforce? You said yourself you put him in a down not expecting him to stay down. What is the point of that? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Down means down until you say it's okay to get up. If you are away from him and cannot correct him the instant he gets up it's a waste. I've seen some of your other posts, and for the life of me I cannot understand why you are putting so much compulsion into a PUPPY! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> My personal belief is that you are moving much too fast for this dog and your expectations at this point are unrealistic. You need to back up, and let him enjoy being a puppy. Obedience lessons should be kept very short meaning a few minutes at a time a few times a day and be motivational and fun. I'm afraid you are on the path to ruining good obedience for your dog by over correcting and expecting too much. All your going to do is create a dog that resents being told what to do rather than a happy willing working partner. JMO

I think you're right John--

I'm just really worried about when is the right time to begin worrying about the puppy not minding.

I realize it was a mistake telling him to down when I was not right there (although I could see him) to reinforce the command. But, when I returned outside and he was still unwilling to do the command--it startled me.

I just don't want to set a presedence of giving the dog a command and having him disobey it when he knows the command.

Like if there are no distractions and the puppy works at 100% with the commands. Then there are some distractions and the puppy still works at or near 100% with the commands---then I'm in a situation where the distractions are REALLY HIGH, and suddenly his efficiency drops--what do I do?
Just don't bother giving him any commands? What if he is doing a behavior that I do not approve of? Do I just let him get away with it? Or do I just not give any commands and stop the behavior?
(i.e. jumping on someone. If he's in the sit or down, he can't jump. Should I NOT tell him to sit/down and prevent him from jumping, or should I tell him sit/down and correct him for failing to sit/down)


I know there are people here who are alot more knowledgeable than I am--that's why I'm here trying to learn, because I WANT to do a good job, I WANT to learn. I know I will make mistakes-- I hope that everyone can understand this and take this into consideration when imparting your knowledge.