My GSD is 4 years old, in great health. He has had 2 years of obediance training. At first, I wanted a SCH dog, but then quickly realized I'd much rather have a protection dog/good companion.

My problem lies here. He's had some bite work, defense training, and will out (on a dumbell or other toy).

He will chase and retrieve a toy/ball for as long as I want to throw it (good drive?)

He is very possesive of his toy, and will show teeth to anyone (even myself) if we try and "take" it from him, however, if I tell him platz, and he realizes I'm not playing, I can take the toy without being growled/bitten.

Here's the problem:
When working him on a sleeve, he seems VERY aggressive, teeth snapping, barking (pretty impressive looking). When it comes time to get the sleeve, he bites down hard initially, but then softens up immediatly, and will not hold on. He tries to go under or around the sleeve, and seems more intent on biting the person than the sleeve. I'm not sure what you'ld call this, but I'm never going to find someone to volunteer their arm and see if he would actually hang on.

Is there something I can do to promote harder bite work? (If you give him the sleeve after the bite, he is very possesive of it as well.

Sorry for all the questions, this is my first GSD, and I'm very new to training. I come here, as the trainer I was using wasn't getting any different results (ie: same thing over and over again)

It's hard to understand what is going on by what you are saying. It might help to know the lines of the dog. It sounds to me like he had too much defensive work befor the prey work was solid. Knowing the lines of the dog may make it easyer for people to give you advice because differnet lines have different charactistics, drived and temperment thresholds.

He definitely sounds overly defensive. Maybe you've done too much civil work (without equipment), maybe he just can't handle the level of threat you've put on him, maybe he's got thin nerves, who knows without seeing it, but no matter how it got to this point, the solution is the same: reduce the level of threat and increase the prey. To keep the helper safe, put the dog on a pole so the limits of his reach are clearly defined. Have the helper work the dog with more lateral motion, less frontal aggression, get the dog to relax and enjoy the fight. You may need to put the sleeve, or even regress to a tug, on a line so that the helper is not right in the dog's face when the dog is on the bite.

Why not try a full bitesuit ? I had a dog that did the same thing a few years back and when we converted to a full bitesuit, he no longer focused on the sleeve, just the man. He usually did chest bites, but would go for the leg, butt, whatever was available. This is good for protection training, not for Schutzhund, but you said that's where your interest lie anyways. Just make sure you teach the "out" well.

Phil

Lines of the dog: I wish I knew. I paid a "middle-man" money for the dog, and never got the papers for him. I'm assuming they were sold with another puppy, screwing me out of the deal. This "middle-man" promised a SCH3 dog, and said she had trained various SCH3 dogs, yet when I dug for info, there was none. She is a begining trainer, and has never even titled a dog before. Confronting her with this info, she left town in a big hurry, apparently doing this to a few other people as well. Getting the papers used to be a VERY high priority, but at this point, I want a solid dog.

He is from East Germany, I bought him after seeing his sire do a SCH3 trial. I believe the score was 296 If I'm not mistaken.

Dog on poll : The trainer had done this a few times, but my dog developed a quirky attitude towards this. Eventually, since he wasn't getting close enough to offer a bite, my dog layed down in "disgust". If he inched within biting distance, my dog would EXPLODE and bite, only to again drop the sleeve. The gentleman that I was working with no doubt knows a lot, but I felt that he could no longer help me and it was time to move on. I've seen him train police dogs, and they have no problem biting the sleeve. Hell, they bite down with all they've got, and are never given the sleeve as a reward!!

Anyhow, if there is anyway someone might be able to help me, I can probably find out the sire/dam's names, and maybe even get papers on my dog after this long time. More importantly though, is building him up to what he should be. I understand that his brothers are border patrol dogs, so I'm hopeing that its in his blood to do well.

I'm located in Daytona Beach FL, if anyone is close enough to provide me with training!

THANKS AGAIN!!

Did you get him as a puppy? Could he have had some training before? It sounds like he had a lot of defensive work done before.

I got him when he was 9 months old. He had been through 2 homes, and no one was willing to work with him. Initially, he challanged EVERYTHING I told him to do, to the point of snapping at me a few times. Luckly, I did not give up, and I've been rewarded with an animal that listens to obediance commands, and is fairly easy to live with. When he was young, he was a handful. I almost gave up several times, as I would get emotional, he would get mad, and we would almost fight. I was taken aside once by a very nice man and told a few things about training, what not to do. Over the period of a few months, these problems (barking in the crate, jumping on furnature, not listening without a pinch collar) worked themselves out.

I suppose the best way to describe him is thta he has extreme prey drive. If it moves, he will chase it down (unless told otherwise). I'm thinking if I can get his bite work in order, perhaps I may someday be able to title him.

Anyhow, if someone here would discuss some things with me on the phone, I'd be eternally grateful. I think I'd be better able to convene whats going on with him.
Just e-mail me at:

TAftonomos@cfl.rr.com, with a name, number and contact time.

From what you say it sounds like you have a really great dog. I train dogs in civil protection and a dog like yours is top of the line for real life security! I sure wish we were in the same country (I live in Greece). You have a really tough and smart dog (such toughness is rare in American bred GSDs).
I especially loved the laying down bit! THAT'S a brave dog.
He doesn't want to 'play' with the bad guy -he wants to hurt him!
Lucky for him you are stearing away from SCH as its usually a chore to teach a serious worker to become a clown. Sure dogs learn to tell the difference between sport and RL but I for one am glad you plan on showing the dog some respect and skipping SCH. The hard part is to find a good trainer who trains in civil P.P (there are VITAL differences in training for SCH). The only advice I can give overseas is that you read up on protection training and find a trainer that can improve your dogs bite (ex. he needs to learn to bite deeper, stronger and hold on tight for starters) with the use of an interrior sleeve (your dog won't know its there)among other things. Sure brave dogs can bite everywhere but a trainer will point out to your dog that the arm is the best and safest place for many reasons. The 'bad guy' should be very experienced and a damn good actor to boot. For example, one of my guys can piss almost any dog off just by looking at it.

Dogs that snap everywhere on an attacker are NOT trained properly and are NOT 'fight-wise'. A good strong bite is much more painful and effective and the trainer will teach the dog to swerve and pull down to protect himself without letting go. Don't worry, your dog will soon learn to LOVE bitting a sleeve (especially when he sees he's hurting the guy who will then run off in terror.)

The trainer will need to show you when and how to properly reward and call off the dog and he should use a variety of sleeves to gradually strengthen the bite and the dog. Before you proceed though make sure you have a full handle on your dog mentally and physically and what exactly it is you want from him. PP dogs can never really be 'just pets'. They will bite if they feel a threat so you will have to always watch out for that. Pets (and most SCH dogs) can be left free in the park and will just bark at the drunk who tried to kick them. A dog trained for RL PP is in effect trained to bite the drunk breaking his arm, pull him down to the ground and guard him (bite him again if he moves) till you call him off. THIS is not a game.

If you have any more questions (like how to test a trainer) email me privately.

Stella,

What in what he said about the dog tells you that this is a really great dog as opposed to a dog with weak nerves who was trained too much in defense. Just curious.

Eric

Originally posted by Eric Lund:
Stella,

What in what he said about the dog tells you that this is a really great dog as opposed to a dog with weak nerves who was trained too much in defense. Just curious.

Eric You aren't the only one, Eric