Hi, I've just joined this forum and am trying to get help with a puppy mill breeder survivor. She is a 4 or 5 year old Shih Tzu and she apparently had one of the worst experiences of these puppy mills.

I've had her over two months now.

She reacts in a panic to a leash, she has no problem relieving herself in her crate, and she can't go up or down stairs - does not have a clue.

If she is restrained in any way, she goes into a panic (found that out at the vet when they tried to draw blood from her neck - but she was no problem if I just hold her and they get it from her arm).

She is sweet, gentle, not aggressive, and otherwise a great dog. However, my biggest problem is having her understand about going outside her crate. At first I didn't crate her, since she'd been so long in a crate. I then got a puppy who she loves and they play great so then they spent the night in the crate, with no problem.

I tried puppy pads for awhile with her but it was hit or miss. So now I'm following the same crate schedule as with the puppy - hoping the puppy would sort of train the older one!

But I take her outside at regular intervals with the puppy training as well, and she just stands there and doesn't go. She only goes once or twice a day as it is - she must have learned to hold it forever at the mill.

When she does by chance go outside, she is praised and praised - I make a big deal out of it. She is starting to follow me on one of those retractable leashes so she walks behind me and doesn't feel any tugging. But - I'll bring her in after waiting forever for her to do nothing (the puppy is long done!) and then during some of the time in her crate, she'll do her business.

I was following Ed's information about not letting them out of a crate when they are barking, but what if she is trying to tell me she has to go? Anyway, I go to do their usual time out and there it is - could even be just a short time after being outside. Has anyone had this issue and if so - what would you recommend? Does any of Ed's DVDs or info address this issue with puppy mill survivors?

Thanks for any help!

Susan



Edited by Connie Sutherland (04/01/2009 06:50 PM)
Edit reason: made paragraphs out of block of text

Hi, Susan,

1. Do you have a chunk of time coming up (a weekend, say) that you can devote to the potty training?

I ask this because I have dealt with dogs who were either kenneled or chained outside all their lives and had no idea about where not to go. I can either find an old post or re-post the details, but let's find out if you can spend a couple of days on it (which is by far the most efficient way).

2. Where are you now with the leash? She sees it and panics, or is it when you touch her collar, or exactly what? The retracto-leash is not a problem?

3. I would not crate the two dogs together. Absolutely not. There are so many reasons, for both of the dogs, that we can go into, but for right now let me as: Do you have two crates?

I would probably take the question about barking to potty off the table right now. Is the dog barking to be let out of the crate? A lot, or what?

4. How urgent is the stair thing? Do you have stairs to get inside and outside, or is it just indoors, between down- and upstairs?

All of this can be worked with. I'm mainly asking for more info first.

I'd probably try to view the past as nothing more than the source of some of the training challenges. Dwelling on it, or treating the dog with a lot of pity, etc. -- this is counterproductive.

But calm and patient training is going to do wonders. I would definitely draw the line at more dogs in the home, however; this girl AND a puppy are already going to present you with a lot of concerted effort to do them both justice. The puppy was probably not the best idea at this point, but here s/he is.

We have lots of folks here with rescues, so you'll find help.

Hello Susan,
Welcome to the board. And thank you for rescuing.

So you wait forever and she still doesn't go.......How long is forever? Puppy time frame doesn't count for (ahem) squat.
Sorry I couldn't resist.



If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

Welcome, Susan.

You will get great advice here.

After these experienced handlers get thru with you, you won't believe the difference in the dog, and you, too.

Thanks everyone for your responses. Let me see if I can answer all your questions without being too confusing.

I do have time as at the moment I am unemployed. So I have been spending a huge amount of time on both dogs.

You're probably right, the puppy was not a good idea, although she is training well, and is a delight.

But the good part about her is that when I got her she really brought the older dog (Abby) out of her shell. She has learned how to play, how to wrestle with each other, how to pick up things in her mouth and run with them, etc. She also would never crate at night until I had the puppy and since that time has crated all night long (both of them) without a peep and without any messes.

I do have two kennels, since I've always had dogs (the last set was two Schipperke's that I got from a reputable breeder - had them for 16-18 years before they died).


The leash is not a problem now - when she reacted badly the first time, I just put it on her while in the house and let her walk around with it on. She just does not react well to being tugged at all, which is why the retractable one works quite well. If I start walking she will follow most of the time. She never runs anywhere by herself - even to follow the puppy who is running all over the place.

I can't tell if she is barking to potty or if she just wants out of the crate. She will quiet herself now - so she is improving. I hated putting her in there to begin with because of her experience but she was doing so well at night, I thought it would be worthwhile to try. Especially with her buddy for company. (they cuddle/sleep together, etc - she treats her as if she is the puppy she never got to keep long enough as at puppy mills). If I say Quiet, she quiets now - so an improvement and she will stay an hour or two in there now without making any noise.

The stairs are not a big deal - I have a front porch with one stair so it is two steps. She jumps off the porch if I don't carry her, but she won't go down the stairs. She also won't come up the stairs, just puts her paws on the step and doesn't go further.

She is capable of jumping on and off the couch - she learned to do that, although I don't allow her up there routinely and she doesn't go there usually. She likes to sleep at my feet on the floor if not in the crate. (but before crate training she would wander off and do her business anywhere if I didn't catch her leaving her spot on the floor.)

She does hold it forever and I'm talking being outside for 30 to 45 minutes at a time, every two hours or so!

When I first got her she would just stand there and shiver (it was very cold and lots of snow). Now she will walk about some and follow me and occasionally sniff around a little but most of the time she will just sit down near me. In the meantime the puppy (Lexi) who is almost 5 months has long done her thing and is running around playing the full length of that retractable leash.

She seems to need a lot of exercise, but not Abby, except for the playtime with the puppy.


I have remained calm and patient with Abby - she has been through so much and I have not raised my voice or anything with her but she does respond to a firm No when needed. I know that any negative behavior would be detrimental to her when she has learned to trust me so much at this point. That took a week or so at the beginning and she is still very shy with other people especially men. She eventually will allow other people to be near her and accepts their petting - if they are in the house for awhile.

I hope this gives you enough info - I so appreciate any help you can give me. I recognize that I switched her training method on her which also didn't help but I think in the long run this method will be the better one if she eventually understands about going potty outside.

Thanks alot!
Susan

Edited by Connie Sutherland (04/01/2009 07:55 PM)
Edit reason: made paragraphs out of block of text

Paragraphs, please!!! For your own benefit -- many experienced folks will see a dense block of type and just skip it.

Ok, sorry, will do! I'll try not to talk so much as well the next time, now that you know most of the story!

Susan

Susan,
You really can't give too much info. (speaking for myself)

Try walking with her, even if it's just around and around where ever you normally go (back yard?). No standing still waiting. I know 30 or 45 minutes can seem forever, but I think it's more important at the moment to get her used to and happy to go outside. Keep her moving, let her stop and sniff, she loses interest move along. No standing still for any length of time.

Patience, your doing great. You'll get her through this.
Randy

Randy, thanks for your encouragement - it really helps - I was beginning to think I'll never accomplish this with her.

I live in a condo and thus have a large open backyard with only a fence at the back, it's open for quite a ways to both sides. So we usually walk up and down that length, except late at night when they are out for the last time, since there are puddles everywhere that I don't want to step in. :-)

Plus they are hard to see that late since they are both mostly black!

So I will continue to do that walking - although I have kind of designated a specific place around my deck for them to go (and the puppy gets it already) - so I am not messing up anyone else's outdoor area, but at this point I'd be happy to just pick it up if she would go! I just don't want my neighbors mad at me!

I know they are learning the words Outside since when I let them out of their crate and say Outside - they run to the front door and sit still while I attach their leashes. The puppy knows the words Go Potty, but I don't think Abby understands that yet.

Anyway, thanks again - phew - a busy day. They are now settled for the night and I get just a little quiet time to myself!

Your dog is beautiful.

Susan

Susan, ditto on what Randy said about the walking.

I had a really tuff case with mine (Schipperke, by the way) last year and walking her was the key.