You guys helped me out tremendously back in December(mouthing, pulling on lead, chasing cars etc.) and I'm sure you can help me again.

My GSD, Heidi, is 9-1/2 months now. She's come a long way since starting obedience with corrections in the last 3 months. I have several issues now I need some expert advise and direction. I have Heidi on a prong collar- and have for some time. I progressed using this as self correction for the lead pulling and chasing cars and it worked wonderfully. When I started obedience with corrections, I tried a regular slip collar(for about a week) but I just could not get any kind of response from her. So, I went back to the prong and saw remarkable improvements. However, I have never been able to find an "ouch" level with Heidi. Most of the time Heidi doesn't even look at me after what I feel like is a strong correction. Sometimes she shows signs of an ouch level-she will lay down or lay back the ears-but without a peep from her. I'm assuming I've over-corected her at that point. I always give her lots of verbal praise and physical praise if it doesn't trigger mouthing. I hadn't been so concerned about finding this level before as she has been progressing very well. But recently, she has started to grab the lead and pull or just chew on it when I'm trying to work her. She'll grab the lead and lay down or roll over- even before she's been corrected for anything. Have I consistently busted her chops way too hard or not hard enough? Or is it that I have been combining work with play and she's telling me she won't work until she plays first? Sometimes it's a two handed correction, and I don't even get a look.

Some other issues in case it helps figure out what I'm doing/have done wrong:

Heidi wears her prong all supervised waking hours and has now progressed to dragging a 6ft lead at "special" times when she cannot control herself from various household theiving, kitty cat chasing, and especially, which leads me to the "various" part of my post- mouthing on me. I cannot even tell you how far she has come with this over the last several months! It could be anything that triggers a jumping/mouthing reaction from her- just taking out the trash! Without that leash and a correction, I cannot calm her enough so she will even listen to a sit or down command, let alone get away without a new bruise or scratch. I think she's trying to play- or not, I have no idea! She doesn't do this to my fiance, which really frustrates me since I am the one who exercises/plays with her (at least 1-1/2 hr everyday) works her (2 separate 15 min intervals combined with ball play), grooms and feeds her. I'm starting to feel like a mean control freak making her wear that collar and leash so much, but she is a totally different dog without them. She can be so calm and ready for a nap- I take that collar off and she's suddenly eveywhere doing everything she's not supposed to do.

I take Heidi with me everywhere I can- I'd even bring her to work with me if she'd stay still long enough!
She doesn't sleep with us- not even the same room.
She sits or lays down for food/treats
She gets a down/stay for mouthing
She sit stays at all doors and we go thru first.

I hope I've given enough-maybe too much info to help with the "ouch" correction and lead/me biting issues.

Thanks so much for your time and apologize for the length!

Oh, ps- obedience class intructor says to snap her on the nose with my end of the leather lead when she's mouthing me or mouthing/barking at other dogs during class. I've done it- it got her attention, but I hated doing it. What are the thoughts on that?

Yeah Welcome back! I will give a shot a a few things here..k?

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But recently, she has started to grab the lead and pull or just chew on it when I'm trying to work her.

Funny as it seems, the flinks tape "focus work" really helped me in this area. It was stated "Dog never takes success himself, always earn, he don't know when it is coming, but it will come" I think if you taught this to Hedi she would not take that leash from you until you give it. I would also suggest you use the leash as a reward, someone at a club I was at once showed me to use the leash as a reward during OBD because it is always in view even during trials... makes perfect sense. So start to use it as such, but when she learns she cannot take it, she must wait, she will focus on it until she gets drive satifaction, "Reward" for the focus.

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she's telling me she won't work until she plays first?

Very well could be, but whatever the reason it;s not important, what's important is she must learn things are done on your time not hers. I would begin nonreinforcment of this behaviour. In other words when she does this, stand there motionless and look the other way, she will try like crazy to get your attation, just wait untill she does something good like siting calmly, THEN begin what you were going to do, if she wants to play again, same thing, stand still and look in another direction until she does something good like Downing etc....This way you are telling her "We will work when I want to work, not play then work like you want to, or we will do nothing. Eventually Extinction will occur with this unwanted behaviour.

To even add on here... I would not even be using corrections at this age.. remember my dog is the same age as yours.. this is the game I play with him... when I want to work we work, if he does not agree, no corrections, we just stand there like a couple of dummies until he does what he is told. After we are done then we play ball and act all crazy. It didn't take him long to figure out we are doing what Lonny wants, a few times we even just packed up and went home with no play or work... that really upset him.. going back home to lay around and do a lot of nothing....

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She can be so calm and ready for a nap- I take that collar off and she's suddenly eveywhere doing everything she's not supposed to do.

Again same thing... she has you trained well hahahha collar on "Good girl" collar off "Bad girl" I solved this much the same way... crate. Good boy, free run, bad boy, crate do nothing but watch everyone else having fun. It took a month or so to figure out he needed to be calm in the house or he gets the crate, I must stress do not use it as punishment! You need to just act casual as you put her in there, no "Bad girl, go to your crate" talk, just do it matter of factly like "Oh chasing the cat, here is your crate sweetheart" Oh calm, here is the living room to nap in, isn't that nice....? Good Girl!

Mouthing: This was a hard one for me... I personally don't mind it most of the time we have fun wrastling around... but I did teach the "That's enough!" command when it's time to stop. No corrections again, I just grabed him by the cheeks and gave him a huge loud "Kiss" on the muzzle, he hates that, that seemed to stop him right away. You need to find something your dog really hates like that. Boy, am I gona hear it for that... Vancamp! That's Kiss Avoidence Training! LOL

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I hated doing it. What are the thoughts on that?

Then don't do it! That's an easy one hahaha

nochim1:

I think you might get better responses by narrowing down your thread to a single question.

Sorry guys old habits die slow. LOL.

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How slow am I. I just realized what the numbers at the bottom of your posts mean. I'll go back to sleep now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hi. When a dog is lying down after a corection, and biting your leash, I would have to say that this dog is stressing. Her ears also back coupled with the lying down, I would think is related to stress. The correction was either to hard, or your timing was off. At any point of view, there is a conflict.
She is a young puppy, and a female. They go though a funny stage around these months. Harsh corrections are not in order now. Making her ouch should not be a goal. I would crate her, in order to avoid problems in the home. A young pup like this cannot take a lot of stress at this stage in life. It almost sounds lke the dog is a little afraid of the compulsion.
What bloodlines is this dog from? It sounds like there is a little nervous energy in her. Like what we see from Fero somethimes. Anyway I would not worry about the pressure and pronging right now, not for a few month anyway. Slapping her in the nose with a leas, I would avoid this now. Puppies are not esy to raise, you give to much disipline, and you have problems, too little then you have problems.
For now my thoughts would be to crate her when not around, keep the exerise progrom going, and don't let her take you for a long walk without you directing her, but if you stress her too much now, you will for sure create many more problems in the future, that will look like a mountain campared to the ones you have now. Good Luck.

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The correction was either to hard, or your timing was off. At any point of view, there is a conflict.

Hehe...can't resist. Michael of all people you are saying the correction was too hard??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, just found that funny.

It is clear Todd that you did not understand like Richard, my point. Common-sense would dictate to me that the dog in question is stressed. I am not a person who enjoys going out and playing jerk and pull with a dog. As I said if a correction is not timed right then you create conflict. If the dog does not understand and exersice then inflicting stress without and motivation is not fair. If you correct a pup too hard this is wrong and counterproductive. If there is a clear goal, or the dog (Not a Puppy) understands what is expected and does not mind, then a suitable amount of stress would be in order to have the dog mind, and want to avoid the stress again, thus getting its reward quicker. What the dog in this post is doing sounds like it is conflicted, and it is not fair to stress a pup like that. I never said that was the way to go. Anyone that would do that to a pup is not knowledgable, or is just a jack-ass.

I don't think you have made things interesting enough for the dog. I would start over from scratch and use all positive motivation/reward based techniques. Even though I don't think you should be using corrections now,I don't really think the dog is reacting to over-correcting. I just think she sounds bored.

Michael: Your never gona live that last thread down brother hahahah but I think your posts on this thread are good to go.

Chuck: I also agree with your post, she does sound bored. But, I do think she is reacting to an over-correction.

Myself: I totally agree with my own post!

Thanks for all of your thoughts and suggestions. apologize again for the length of the post. So in other words, I have been a wicked witch bustin' her chops way too hard and really shouldn't be at all!

I had read Lonny's response earlier today and I took her out tonight with a few extra hot dogs and worked her with no corrections. She did very well. I ran her pretty hard, she was wired for awhile here at home, but now she's tired and relaxed at the moment w/out collar or leash.

I did do the time outs in the kennel initially and it worked well for awhile, until she began destroying it while in there. The bed was shredded and the door bent, so i decided no more of that.

I really don't know anything so I hope I'm not placed in the Jack Ass category! Just a dumb blond trying to do the right things for Heidi and I both.

So again I'm expecting too much too soon and I will lay off and just deal with it. I'd rather be a sweetie softy anyway!