I have been all over this website for about 3 weeks now and have seen and put into use Ed's basic obedience, watched the dog agression video, and have spent many nights up past my bedtime reading about schutzund and protection in particular. I have watched anything free that I could get my hands on with bernhard flinks and ivan balabanov, which is not much but short video clips.

I have been working with Ferguson with a ball on string for about 2 weeks. He picked up on the game instantly. I actually have trouble ending the exercise because he usually gets the ball as I work him up in drive. Then I have to work him up again and put it away the last time, when I actually manage to outdo him. I do mostly tugging when he gets it, a couple retrieves, and let him enjoy the catch. What I just found out is that I have been outting him way too much. This is one of the many things I am sure I am messing up on by not having had the Flinks video.


So, I just purchased it today. I have four questions for all of you seasoned trainers. I will be very grateful because I am sure you will save me much money and time!

I have been working ferguson on obedience from ed's video. He is proficient with sit and down-stays with moderate distractions (other dogs, throwing a ball, walking around and out of sight briefly, you get the point). He has an quick come that only requires a long leash correction with moderate distraction (he will avoid the subsequent pop followed by the Ferguson-come command). We are working on heel, about 10 steps right now. I hate to write so much but I actually have a funny story about the come that really was the point in which I knew I could expect more from him and still keep things fun...

I was doing the come command like on the video; ie tossing treats out of his reach and then letting him find them. By day two of this his smart "butt" actually learned that he had about enough time to find three pieces before I was going to call out Ferguson-come, then pop. He scampered to find three and hustled right back to me before I gave the command? I was dumbfounded. Variation slapped me right in the face at that point!

Okay back to the questions...

1.) I am utterly confused about the fact that many say obedience work kills drive. I don't do obedience commands personally while working up his drive, my goal is to build up his confidence. He is 10 months old now by the way. Should I stop doing separate obedience work with him until I watch the video and have a clearer direction?

2.) This question piggybacks off of question 1. Is it a problem that I have no clear direction of where we are headed right at this moment? I ultimately want a dog that is obedient in a manner that it stays fun for both of us. I am intrigued by protection work now though. I also understand that I cannot make him into something he is not, at least in a healthy way, and that is the ultimate priority. I am just wondering if bite work is where i want to be headed to, should I be doing different training at this early stage to set him up for success.

3.) A coworker who has had two gsd's progress through sh1 sh2 sh3, has recommended that I take Ferguson for a consult with a handler that does bite work. I have met him and watched him work with her and her dogs on one occasion with protection training. She believes that the handler will be able to tell very quickly if Ferguson has bite work in him. Is this possible at his age? Economically this would save me a boatload of money and time if he is not interested in this. In my opinion I need to order about 4 more video's and at least two books in schutzhund before I would have enough understanding to make any kind of indication myself. I feel that if I don't at least prepare him for the handler first, how could he be able to tell. If he does have this psychic ability , then yes I would be grateful that he can save me time and money, and I can go on a different direction with Ferguson.

4.) I am trying to foster an environment that Ferguson looks to me for fun, play, food, and direction. I want to give him all the experiences that he craves. I already enjoy his progress with obedience and know that he can do more, and wants more. I just can't show him yet, because I am unsure at this point. What interests me about the bite work is that it looks so controlled, intense and rewarding for both the dog and owner. Will proper bitework training take the owner-dog bond to a whole different level than just obedience training alone, or is this just an aspect of Schutzhund (merely for competition).

In closing, it is very important that you understand that I am simply craving the relationship and bond that I see people can have with there dog while in drive. I want that kind of focus from him. If bitework is not part of this equation, then I can forgo it. I am having a huge issue of how bitework, drive, and obedience vs focus are all related if at all. I may be derailed in my thinking, but I was intending on using the drive to increase focus and produce sharper and motivate for obedience. Now I am not so sure this is correct thinking.

Thanks to any who can clear all or any of these questions. I will ask no more until I watch the Flinks building drive vid.

Kevin
sorry so long, that is why I actually underlined the questions.

I'm not a schutzhund trainer and I don't "do" bite work per-se, but I do the drive building work because it really improves the obedience work that my dog does. I don't think that obedience itself is what kills drive, but obedience training via compulsion that is the problem. I think as long as you aren't using compulsion you should be fine.

I'm really glad that you bought "building Drive and Focus" because it really shows you how to build the drive, keep the game going and put it to some use.

As somebody that doesn't do schutzhund, I can still say that drive-building esp. re: the focus is valuable. It creates a more trusting relationship with the dog, and provides opportunities for drive satisfaction WITH THE HANDLER. That alone is worth it's weight in gold. My dog tends to be somewhat reactive and can have inappropriate prey-drive issues (he's SO into squirrels;-). He could care less about any food I could try to distract him with under these circumstances. He will happily focus for a toy, because he knows I'll fight with him, which is SO much better than anything else.

Because we've done the drive work, he will do fabulous work for a toy. His work for food way okay, but not nearly as animated or enthusiastic.

I almost never out the toy when I'm working with drive. My dog's grip isn't fantastic and he'll never be good at bite work (my fault, not his). I usually just let him carry it to the car, and he drops it to get a drink and that's that. I've had him 'out' just enough that I know he'll do it when asked, but my dog is three. I'll leave the 'when' and 'how' to out answer to those who know what they are doing;-)

We don't do shutzhund or any other sports. But I will ask if in #1 what you're really hearing is that corrections kill drive, not obedience work.

I get the best obedience out of my dog when he is in drive. Whether for a toy or a treat, if he is in drive he will do anything to get the reward and the only correction I need to use is "no" to let him know when he's not giving me what I'm asking of him.

Kristel,

For us "drop it" is part of the game. He knows that after he drops the tug we're going to do something fun with it. Like I'll walk away from him, hold the tug out, and let him come chase it.

When we fight with the tug and he "wins" he always brings it right back to start the game over again. He'll chase me around the yard, with the tug in his mouth, to try to get me to grab it so we can fight again. He won't even try to play keep away. He wants me to get the tug back in my hand so we can fight again.

That sounds like how it is SUPPOSED to go.

My dog comes at me with the toy too, but he's so "challenged" around hanging on to it (again, my fault) that I don't 'out' him much. If I'm fighting with him he'll hang on quite nicely and tenaciously and his prey drive is great, but I was so concerned with getting him to let go of things as a puppy that he's having to relearn that's it's okay to hang on.

It's better to start out the right way:-)

Kristel,
thanks, I think I will also be very glad I got the video. This is probably exactly what I wanted. There is so much garbage out there it gets confusing. Right now we are working on the learning of new commands with food. He is best right now working for food, but the ball is gaining momentum. I have been working on heeling and he will work for the ball, almost as animated as for food. Thanks to your advice, i will be very careful not to go into the correction stage to quickly and never in drive work. I am officially addicted.
Thanks
kevin

 Quote: Kevin Bouvy

I am officially addicted.

It's a pretty big club

 Quote: Kevin Bouvy

Right now we are working on the learning of new commands with food....i will be very careful not to go into the correction stage to quickly and never in drive work.

I use marker training with food to train all new behaviors, and then use the drive with the tug or ball to really amp it up once the behavior is learned. With marker training you never have to worry about killing any of that nice drive you're building, so they can work together quite nicely. I'm not sure if you're familiar with marker training?

I very rarely have to give a correction for a missed obedience command. And it's FUN training new behaviors this way

I have been using it for a couple of weeks now. I only know the extent that was covered in the Basic Obedience video. I actually started back from scratch with my older dog and charged up a marker, and she has even shown improvement. I noticed there is also another leerburg video just on marker training. I also have heard very good things about Ivan Balabanov's obedience videos. These are all on the christmas wish list, if I can even wait that long.
I get the concept, but I find myself thinking... what do I want to teach next and how and when will I mark to really get the behavior I want.

I've been marker training for years and still learned a few things from the Leerburg 'Marker training' video. It's a good add to the Christmas list .
It sounds like you have a good grip on the basic concept.

I just saw in the newsletter that this video is currently 10% off.

Edited by Kristel Smart (06/11/2009 12:02 PM)
Edit reason: Just saw newsletter

I am with Kristel. That video is quite possibly one of the two or three best of the LB videos. And there are some darned good ones.

As far as impact on my own training, it's number 1, and I saw it well after I had started using marker training. Just the "marker training a human" chapter is worth the purchase price. (Maybe just the "teaching Ed" part alone! )

Everyone in my club watched that chapter one night. We all thought that even the couple of people not yet using the marker method got a lot from seeing the frustration of the student (the dog, generally) when we are trying to speak a foreign language (English) and expecting him somehow to suddenly understand the language if we just say it loud enough or often enough.

http://leerburg.com/219.htm Check out the Table of Contents to see that each chapter is a valuable stand-alone piece. And together, the overview they present is far clearer than any other I have seen.

I would plan to watch it gradually, maybe over a couple or three evenings; it's a fun video -- not just dry info at all.



P.S.
And yes:

 Quote: Kristel Smart

.... I just saw in the newsletter that this video is currently 10% off.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (06/11/2009 12:31 PM)
Edit reason: p.s.