Male dog suddenly crazy
#244655 - 06/29/2009 09:46 AM |
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Hi all,
My sister took her 13 yr old female to the groomer's the other day, and when she got her back, her little male (intact)rescue dog is suddenly in a frenzy to get her. She's been spayed since puppyhood, but that doesn't seem to matter. This is not the first time she's been groomed since he's been in the house, but it seems like this time they bathed her in pheromones or something. She has tried bathing the female again to no avail.
I told her she has to protect her old girl from him and she's armed with a prong and a crate. He has dominance issues anyway which we've discussed, and hey maybe it's actually getting bad enough for her to actually take some training steps. He's getting quite aggressive with her now and the cat. I think caused by the sudden consistent use of the prong and crate, it's pissing him off.
But I told her the only choice as of now is to control his every move with the crate and leash or end up with a dead cat. She broke down and tried to let the old (much bigger) girl handle it, which actually works better because he actually respects the old dog. But it's not fair because she looks to mom to save her.
I know obedience/pack leader stuff is the answer, but in his frenzied state I don't want her doing any corrections on him right now if possible. Just take care of his needs and keep the old girl locked up when he's doing his business. It's getting to where he's trying to bite her putting him in the crate, so it must be muzzle time. I know this isn't fair to him because she's had him a year and hasn't done her groundwork with him. My sister is going to get him neutered asap thinking that's going to solve at least some of his horniness (pardon me). He's at least 5 and maybe older.
Am I telling her right? All I know is what I've read here and she's looking to me to be the expert. What the heck is on this female to make him go crazy???? Any advise?
Sorry so long, TIA
Christi
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Re: Male dog suddenly crazy
[Re: Christi Bradshaw ]
#244683 - 06/29/2009 02:48 PM |
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All i can say is your sister is in the soup now. She has let this go one so long that he has just about established himself as the leader and seems like he is daring somebody to knock him off his thrown. The easy fix would be an E-collar. Noe sure if she wants to spend that kind of money but i have seen first hand a dog that was EXTREMELY dominant knocked down to size in just about 1/2hr. it is an option
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Re: Male dog suddenly crazy
[Re: Christi Bradshaw ]
#244686 - 06/29/2009 03:19 PM |
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Christi,
Not sure where you are located, but you may want to get a animal behaviorist. This sounds like things have escalated too far for your sister (and yourself) to control. Maybe if you list where you are people can make some recommendations.
Best of Luck,
Kimberly
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Re: Male dog suddenly crazy
[Re: Jason Penwell ]
#244687 - 06/29/2009 03:21 PM |
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I don't think I'd just reach for an e-collar without a whole lot of work/training/etc. first. And EXERCISE. This dog isn't horny, he's disrespectful, plain and simple.
I would work on consistency with exercise, exercise, exercise, groundwork and training before I would resort to getting in a pissing contest with a dog. A good leader rarely needs to resort to physical force...and dogs know it. Don't get me wrong, I like and use e-collars, I just don't think it's a good idea to stim a dog into submission; especially if you want a decent relationship with the dog.
I don't think neutering at this age would do much good. Sounds like she has her work cut out for her.
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Re: Male dog suddenly crazy
[Re: Kristel Smart ]
#244689 - 06/29/2009 03:29 PM |
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I agree, more exercise, but I'd be curious for more information around the aggressive episodes.
Are they just when she tries to put him in the crate? Is she doing this by force, does he have a crate command (I assume no), is she trying to lure him in, anything else?
Does she do NILIF (nothing in life is free) or any other groundwork with him? I would start with that (and it's a useful way to go but doesn't have to involve corrections if you are loathe to do that).
Which isn't to say that corrections don't have their place, but it does sound like she hasn't given him expecations of behaviour that she's now in a position to reinforce. I would correct for blatent disrespect but I would also keep in mind that this is a dog that has to learn how to behave in her house, and she needs to teach him that, since he's not going to magically know that it's required.
NILIF and groundwork will help her to teach him appropriate behaviour.
Edited to add: but any corrections for blatent disrespect I would not allow to escalate to pissing match stage, as Kristel says. Teaching the dog what is expected and being fair in that regards will go a long way.
I have a rescue dog that could be described as somewhat rank-driven, and I've worked with her 2 ways; when I initially got her, I was far more correction-driven, for behaviour inside and outside the house. I then worked at setting different expectations for her, changing her behaviours at a more root level (or at least her reactions), and giving her something to do instead. What a difference. She is FAR more responsive to the second method, far more engaged, happy, wants to work with me, and we are far closer and far more effective working together because of it. I was always doing NILIF, but I changed from working with trangessions by correction to working with trangressions by teaching.
My French Ring trainer taught me that everything can be a training opportunity, if I chose to take it. I applied that to working with my female and it's made such a huge difference it is difficult to quantify.
The other thing I wanted to say is that at least in my female, she's very intelligent. And I think part of her being somewhat rank-driven is attached to that. Your sister's dog could very well be a intelligent dog that may not only be missing appropriate physical exercise, but appropriate mental exercise.
Edited to add again: I used the above to good effect in working w/my female's dog aggression (killing is fun!), but it was also REALLY important to us setting out a good relationship and her learning to look to me as a leader and as someone who will set out direction.
Teagan!
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Re: Male dog suddenly crazy
[Re: Jennifer Mullen ]
#244700 - 06/29/2009 04:11 PM |
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As the owner of a 9 yr old male who was neutered at 5 for health reasons, I can tell you that neutering him now is going to do nothing to change this behavior.
My guess is it has zilch to do w/the groomer's trip. It has to do with the fact that the older female was gone, the male thought he had moved up in rank, and now is trying extra hard to dominate and keep his self-elevated status. I had this same exact thing happen. My younger male got upset when my older male came home from a trip. He had elevated himself during the separation and wasn't going to let my older male back into the house w/out a battle.
She needs to correct him like she means it. No waffling, no building up, just strong, meaningful corrections for blatantly obnoxious, disrespectful behavior. Suddenly imposing a prong and crate is not helping if he has not been conditioned to either. Don't use the crate as punishment either, and she may not get bitten for putting him in it.
We do need a bit more info, as Jennifer stated.
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Re: Male dog suddenly crazy
[Re: Jennifer Mullen ]
#244708 - 06/29/2009 04:47 PM |
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Thanks for all your responses, REALLY!
Jason--yep she's in the soup. I just sold my e-collar too. Used it for my rescue who wouldn't listen when a rabbit popped up. I have Ed's video to go along and it worked like a charm. I would have kept it but she is now restricted to leash outside the backyard period because of horrible displaysia/something else skeletal. My sister is not ready for that. It would be way too much for her to do properly/fairly. I was hoping that the prong would knock him down to size quickly, and I still think it can if she will dedicate to NILF. I keep searching on here to see if she has screwed up beyond repair and I am hanging on to an Ed quote that "no dog is too old to train."
She's scared enough now with people telling her to put him down that I think she might be able to do this. She is not one of those loveemandleave type of owners. She is a forever home type of girl.
Kristal and Jennifer ---yes, yes, and yes. I believe this little guy can be saved with just that advise. It's never really too late to start NILIF right??? With love and patience and firmness. My little/big rescue required weeks of hand feeding every morsel of dinner through NILIF plus tons of obedience. I did this because Ed himself replied to my thread and said "DO SOMETHING NOW!!" (handler aggression) I did and now she is the most respectful/gentle/beautiful little girl ever.
He has started today to get back to his old self. Something was seriously driving him crazy. His old self is a bit disrespectful/dominant, but basically controllable and Something was seriously driving him crazy. His old self is a bit Thanks for all your responses, REALLY!
Jason--yep she's in the soup. I just sold my e-collar too. Used it for my rescue who wouldn't listen when a rabbit popped up. I have Ed's video to go along and it worked like a charm. I would have kept it but she is now restricted to leash outside the backyard period because of horrible displaysia/something else skeletal. My sister is not ready for that. It would be way too much for her to do properly/fairly. I was hoping that the prong would knock him down to size quickly, and I still think it can if she will dedicate to NILF. I keep searching on here to see if she has screwed up beyond repair and I am hanging on to an Ed quote that "no dog is too old to train."
She's scared enough now with people telling her to put him down that I think she might be able to do this. She is not one of those loveemandleave type of owners. She is a forever home type of girl.
Kristal and Jennifer ---yes, yes, and yes. I believe this little guy can be saved with just that advise. It's never really too late to start NILIF right??? With love and patience and firmness. My little/big rescue required weeks of hand feeding every morsel of dinner through NILIF plus tons of obedience. I did this because Ed himself replied to my thread and said "DO SOMETHING NOW!!" (handler aggression) I did and now she is the most respectful/gentle/beautiful little girl ever.
He has started today to get back to his old self. That is his old disrespectful/dominant, but basically controllable and good with the cat and old dog manner. I'm lending her the money to get him fixed under the condition that she watch Ed's video's (Sorry Ed). It can't hurt right?
So...he has bitten her 3 times. Hard. He's under 20 lbs and there are no kids in the house. She needs to go to complete NILIF with walks on the prong right? I am pretty sure he knows enough basic commands for getting fed through sit/ stay type stuff. The problem was that he was not eating or drinking through this "crazy episode." NOTHING was distracting this dog except the prong, and that was pissing him off because of lack of GW.
We're pretty desperate here. It was very sudden, and unfortunate that he didn't have ground work.
I guess basically tell me that it's not too late for basic ground work and serious pack leader mentality might work before she gives in and gives him to someone else to deal with. Ed swears most of these dogs can be salvaged and I'm hanging on to that.
And then after a bit start some serious obedience?
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Re: Male dog suddenly crazy
[Re: Christi Bradshaw ]
#244709 - 06/29/2009 05:10 PM |
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Jenni--thanks. I was afraid that me be what's happening.
Quote"She needs to correct him like she means it. No waffling, no building up, just strong, meaningful corrections for blatantly obnoxious, disrespectful behavior. Suddenly imposing a prong and crate is not helping if he has not been conditioned to either. Don't use the crate as punishment either, and she may not get bitten for putting him in it."
Yes, but how to correct him without hitting him? He had been on the prong at my urging for pulling during walks so it's not totally new to him. And he has been crated before too. Just not consitantly.
I had her bring him to my house because I have corrected with the prong before, and he was not too bad. He listened to me. So I told her her corrections weren't hard enough. She did a hard correction on him and he listened and jumped into her lap for forgiveness. Perfect right? Not a "you killed me correction" but one that got his attention. This is for jumping on the old dog by the way, which I'm sure he knows the command for "off".
My dilemma is that the prong/crate weren't ever consistent. But they weren't foreign to him either. He WILL NOT LISTEN OR RESPOND without the prong. But I don't want to destroy their relationship either? And they do have one, be it a bit one sided. He hangs himself on a flat collar. And it's completely exhausting for her. One good pop for me did the trick to get him off of the old dog, tho not for good. Is it just the fact that she has spoiled him so bad??
Edit--what info do you guys need to help us?
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Re: Male dog suddenly crazy
[Re: Christi Bradshaw ]
#244710 - 06/29/2009 05:31 PM |
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Yes, but how to correct him without hitting him? He had been on the prong at my urging for pulling during walks so it's not totally new to him. And he has been crated before too. Just not consitantly.
YIKES. You do not hit a dog to correct it- ever.
The prong sounds like it does work (and it does on 99% of dogs, if used PROPERLY) but your sister is not consistent. Keep the brat in the house w/a prong on at all times w/a pull tab if she doesn't want to trip on the leash. Correct him immediately upon bad behavior, and if she can't be right there, then he should be crated.
I think this is a problem w/your sister much more than it is a problem w/the dog.
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Re: Male dog suddenly crazy
[Re: Jenni Williams ]
#244715 - 06/29/2009 07:14 PM |
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No no she's not beating the dog. Altho if she had he might not be such a brat lol. (Kidding kinda of. Her idea of beating, if she was to beat him, results in what Ed calls mosquito corrections!) My point was that I told her he needed corrected sternly ASAP and there really isn't a way to correct a little ball of muscle like this safely and effectively without a prong that I know of. This has been her dilemma.
Your right in that is her problem. In her defense, she didn't create his whole mentality in the year she's had him. He's at leat 5 and possibley 9 or so. He's done quite well, altho I perceived future problems which is why I made her get the prong for pulling on walks.
I think you might be right about him trying to re-establish himself after the older dog got home.
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