Long Down handler out of sight problem? We had this down to about 15-20 minutes.

But since a protection incident, where I left them in a down to protect the campsite and I was approached by some guys started arguing over my jug lines. They were mines marked with my initals.

Long story short the dogs broke the down and ran off the fish stealers. I recalled them and praised the hell out of them, making a decison like that saving Dad from having to get phyiscial.

Now, when I try to do the long down with me out of sight we are back to 1-5 minutes, they slowly following me or in half downs/sits like their sprinters, about a minute or 2 when I'm out of sight. I can see them from where I'm hiding.

I can come out and point back to their original position and they will go back and down/stay.
Or when I come toward them they will go down like they've been there.

I don't give a leash correction because its too late, isn't it? I do say "bad dog" and they will swril around into a down.

My E-collars on loan to an bird hunting assoicate.

Is there something I can do in the means time to correct this? Suggestions will be appreciate, I'm stumped. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I think you did well to go back to 1-5 min. I would try to fix the problem working the dogs separately for this issue, until they both do well. From short time (a few seconds) to long time (maybe up to their previous achievement of 20 minutes). Because it's enough that one of them breaks the down, and the other one follows immediately. Then if I work them together again, I'd probably start with less than 1 minute, and increase the time later, if things go well.
Now, if you work the dog separately and he still follows you, I don't think it's too late for correction, when you return. The dog knows it's not all right because he downs when you come, but I think you should still correct him.
I tied the dog (with prong) to a tree about 2 times, and he corrected himself when he broke the down, but I didn't like the idea, because he changed the waiting spot. I also used to repeat the DOWN command from the hiding place, when I felt my dog is going to break the down (you can notice the dog's attitude and just guess) and he didn't move and I didn't have to correct. But after some time, I had to teach the dog 'Down' is a single command, not 2 or 3 And, if the dog still left the place, I corrected and brought him to the initial spot.
I'm curious what people here think. I'm just doing this way, I'd like to see other ideas.

Michaela thanks for your reply, I'll give that a try its just so frustrating starting over after building to such a long down, having it torn down by an neccesary reaction, something you want to praised for.

But I will start over again, like you mentioned, single training with a correction afterward when he/she breaks the down.

I don't like repeating a command because you can see that he/she thinks their getting away with something, until I walk toward them.

They respond to the choke collar well, so I won't go to the prong unless I have to.

I'd be happy with a solid 5 minutes now, it'll take time but we will get there again.

Do you think this because of the rewards from the prior incident or is this just an oppurntinty to break the down??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I just gave some advice to start over and refine the technique. I guess its good to hear it from someone else.

I think it is strongly related to the previous incident, but I also think it's good that you praised the dogs. They behaved really well in that hot situation - imagine you leave a child in the house especially to make his homework and the house bursts on fire, then the last thing you think of is that damned homework.

Now they have to understand that they still have to wait. Even under strong distractions. The proofing is much shorter, I think it's just a matter of days until they get back to their 30 minutes 'sphinx' down. The only problem is when strong distraction come. I wish you those guys never return to the field. Unfortunately, there is a long way to the protection work, you cannot ask your dogs yet to decide for themselves when it is time to break your command to protect you, and when it is not.

For me, if I can and I have time to evaluate the situation, my choice is to tell the dog(s) 'Free' before and then let free, or call them away from the distraction. This way I make the decision, and not the dog(s). But my dogs are not protection trained, and probably never will.

I would also go back and reinforce the correct behaviour with some food.. then leave again.. come back.. reinforce with some food.. this will help stabilize them also.

Michaela and Jody thanks for your ideas and interesting suggestions.

Michaela thats what I like about them that they do seem to make pretty good decisons when to turn "on" and "off", loud argumentive voices and high emotions probably the smell of adernalin around me sets them off. I don't want to train away from that. Their recall is pretty good, not instantanous but good enough to stop someone from getting bit, if he doesn't try to comfort them. But I will try to enhance their down starting from stracht like you mentioned.

Jody I don't like using food because it adds a step in proofing stage, you have to train away from the food in proofing, and with the Rottie it totally distracts her concentration so that all she want is the food. It took the longest to teach the down/stay until I release her with the treat 3-6 ft away. She gets so antsy that she can't hardly stand it.

It could help the with male GSD, but I don't want to have to add a step. If all else fails I'll try that, it would probably work great with the male.


So far we are up to 3 minutes solid. The hardest part of the 10k mile journey, the 1st 3 minutes or step.

Thanks again

Don
You "should" give good correction, The excercise is not "Down". The excercise is " down-STAY".
If the dog gets up and moves, and go's down again when he see's you, You calmly walk to him and give strong verble and collar correction there at the new location. After the correction you return the dog to the orrigional possition and down it again with a little praise.
He should not be corrected back to the orrigional possition . Thus he will learn "its not just down, But that it is also possition. If this seams not to work, Down him on a "place" a board , a piece of paper, any thaing , this will stop him from creeping.

Luck

Ron

Don,

If I understood your first post correctly, you had no problems with long down (15-20 mins) prior to your “accident”. Your problems started after that, and only when you are out or sight. To me it indicates anxiety, maybe caused by that accident. In this case I have to agree with Jody’s advice. Even though her method is used primarily to “teach” the long down, and your dogs already know the command, it doesn’t hurt to go back to basics to fix a problem and release that anxiety.

Now, assuming that the anxiety factor is fixed and they still break the down when you are out of sight--my philosophy is to understand the problem from the dog’s perspective and to outsmart the dog before resorting to harsh corrections. Here’s what I would do:

Hide where you can see the dog very well (train each dog individually). Watch the dog carefully. As soon as it starts to fidget or lifts his head to sniff the air or whatever he does before actually getting up, yell “down”, or “platz” or whatever without showing yourself. Make the dog believe that you are everywhere and see everything. If the dog stays down, wait a minute or so, come out, walk up, praise, treat. The trick is not to wait until the dog is up. Gradually increase your distance, but always watch for signs of movement. If you can’t see the dog, have someone help you by watching the dog and giving you a signal if he is even thinking about getting up. If you do that on a windy day, try to hide so that the wind doesn’t carry your smell toward the dog.

And if that doesn’t help, tell your buddy that the hunting season is over... :rolleyes:

Renee I like that technique and I see my timing was wrong instead of walking back out verbal repreminding then taking to the original spot or pointing to the spot, give the command and walk away again.

I need to do it before they get up with a loud "sit", instead of quitely "What the hell, you butts forgot what we are doing, darn what are you doing". Sigh. I have to stop taken it Personal. Don't take it personal, Don, just give the command before he (train separately) get ups. Will do, I bet that might plug this hole.

Ron if they make it up I will follow your advice and use the right timing. I was doing the verbal repreminding on the new down spot, then only giving a command on the original, no praise sighing.

I'll try to pin point this like you said. Its verbal reprimind and correction on the new down, and a down stay command and praise on the original down spot, gotcha makes sense.

Jody - If push turn to shove I'll use the food to really hit it, I know it will work with the male. But not that food crazy bitch, she kinda like that bacon commercail.

Michaela starting over is unamious. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What Renne says is correct but I differ in one thing. I dont believe in yelling "down " or "platz". I advise yelling "No" . I dont believe in saying a command that I cant back up, especially during fixing a problem. Mark the wrong behavior with the "No" and repeat it on your way back to the dog ,so it doesnt forget what it was that it did wrong, take the dog back to the original spot, then say "down" or "platz" then correct the dog down. Even if the dog downs on its own it will get an automatic correction. With out the auto correction you can end up with a never ending game.Yelling "down" or "platz" from a distance doesnt teach the dog that the getting up part is what was wrong . We already know the dog knows how to down, you want to teach it that getting up on its own is wrong.