Hello everyone. I am considering getting a pup from Jeremy and Amanda at GerdesHaus. I have been corresponding with them regularly, and will be meeting with them for the first time this week. Does anyone know anything about them or their dogs? I would also appreciate recommendations about what to look for and ask of them when I visit. The pup that I would be interested in would be from their proposed breeding of Cena and Fox, as I prefer a solid black. Thanks everyone.
Tom

Sorry, forgot to include a link.
http://www.gerdeshaus.com/

What do you want the dog for?

Also, the right dog is always the right color.

Melissa,
I will be a beginner at training. I am trying to learn all that I can so that I will be able to do a good job. I want a really well behaved dog, that is stable in temperment, that is healthy and a good example of its breed. I am further hoping that I will be a good enough trainer that I can consider moving into Schutzhund, but as I am new, I can't yet say what will happen in that regard. But most importantly I want a dog that will be able to live predominantly in my home, safely, with my family (wife, 9, 12, & 16 year old) who are all onboard with bringing a pup into our home. I have a fenced yard and the space to put in a run. I hope that answers the question. Thank you.
Tom

I remember you saying in another thread (Tom, not you Melissa, lol) you wanted a pet for the family.

Well, I looked at the site. I have certainly seen worse.

Really, my issues are a bit picky, and I am an absolute perfectionist, so please keep that in mind.

My biggest issue is PayPal buttons on pages of breedings where the color is the only thing dicussed. This just about throws me into a seizure. How on Earth can you accept a deposit from any Tom, Dick, or Harry when they have no info on the temperament expected in the cross? I have major issues with any breeder accepting money from someone whom they have not spoken with on the phone to get some idea if the person is a good match for the pup. Clicking a Paypal link is for commodoties....not puppies.

On that same subject, how in God's name does one pick a puppy he/she has never met? I hate nothing more than the first pick/first deposit system for buying a supposed working dog. ARGH. I know there are people who like this, but everything about it spells disaster. Great, they make suggestions...not good enough, IMO. I would never never never never never sell a pup to someone b/c they picked it's picture out as the cutest. Ok, so their supposed temperament test results are in there...still not good enough. No silly temperament test is a substitute for daily breeder attention to detail w/in the little, budding personalities of each pup. I break the news to my puppy buyers immediately, before I approve them for a pup, and tell them that I pick their puppy. Period. They can choose sex, but beyond that, they get the puppy who fits their lifestyle. Deal with it or get a dog from someone who cares less.

My less major issues are: no apparent breed surveys. This seems to be more common lately, esp. in working lines. I am a stickler, though, I admit. I just think if you're BREEDING an animal, it should be as close to perfect in every way. I see no KKLs on any of them, unless I missed them. And I may have, the way the titles are displayed, which brings me to my other picky issue....

If a dog has a Sch.1 or 2 or 3, it has a BH. I hate when people list every freaking title...and this is almost always done by people who are not involved w/the sport, don't know what they're talking about, or are trying to make the list of titles look longer. I shudder when I see "BH, Sch.1,Sch.2,Sch.3." The correct way to list this is "Sch.3". Anything else makes me wonder if they have a clue. There was one on there I noticed that had all these titles and also "SG." The proper way to denote this would have been "SG So and So, Sch whatever." SG is a show rating (Sehr Gut- very good). I think this was the only one I noticed w/a show rating.

I like the guarantee going to over 2 years for hips to certify, but I admittedly did not read the whole thing for any loopholes. If it says you have to send back your pup to get a new one, then I hate it;-)

I seriously question the vaccine protocol. Search the vaccine threads for reasons why, but in short, I think that is waaaaaay too many and waaaay too young. Not only are they ineffective, but dangerous.

No dogs they bred themselves are titled. Not sure if you care. I wouldn't necessarily,but it depends on how comofortable you are judging temperament. Plenty of phenomenal dogs are not formally titled- I should know...I have a few. ;-) BUT- if you are inexperienced, which you admit, and want to dabble in sports, which I seem to remember you saying somewhere, this might be a red flag that perhaps they are not the best choice for this type of pup.

Overall, you could do much worse, from what I've seen. You could also do better, IF YOU WANT. If you visit them and are comfortable, that means far more than what picky Jen has to say based solely on reading their website.

ETA- oops.

Edited...again. How much is this pup? I see they have a blurb in there about explaining why their pups are more expensive...made me curious.

Edited by Jenni Williams (01/03/2010 01:55 AM)
Edit reason: Tom replied while I was typing this fascinating novel

Tom, To be honest I would search else where if I were very new at selecting a dog. There are several red flags I see from this site although nothing as major as someone trying to pass off showlines as working lines or as an out and out puppymiller.

The first major one to play off a little of what Jenni mentioned is how hands off these people are. You can submit a non refundable deposit on a litter that's not born yet, with no guarantee you'll get a pup from that litter or breeding per their own language, and you can select your own pup no matter what your experience level is. You just mail in your contract. After 3 chances to select a puppy of perhaps not the right puppy or perhaps not the breeding you wanted you lose your deposit forever. Wow, what could possibly go wrong?

There are several retired brood bitches that are being passed on after only two litters. It does beg the question as to why that would be considering one of them is being passed on despite her having titles because she is a sable.

Some of the language in their puppy contract listed on their website is a bit alarming. Their hip guarantee is only to receive 1/3 of the cost of the dog back no matter how lame the dog is. They also require prelims with OFA but don't use OFFA (or anything else from what I can tell) themselves even on dogs that they are selling as adults or as retired breeders. Personally I would walk away from a breeder just on this alone but I admit, I'm picky and have walked away from a great number of contracts.

So things I would be asking for:
To see with my own beedy little eyes Hip and elbow paperwork on sire and dam since the breeder doesn't seem to report.
To see Sire and Dam's AKC paperwork. They do alot of imports so there should be DNA verification paperwork on those dogs as well.
To view the final contract and read line for line word for word. If there is something in that contract you don't like I would ask to discuss it. Do NOT sign a contract you aren't prepared to live with the consequences of. I would rather lose a $500 deposit from the wrong guy than live with the hassle of a contract with the wrong guy.
To see sire and dam if they are on the premises. How do they behave? What does their temperament seem like?
Ask why the breeder chose these two as a pair. If color is the reason do yourself a favor and find another breeder.
To ask ad see what kind of care, nutrition, environment my puppy will be raised in.
If this breeding has been done before pictures of the resulting pups and adult dogs along with any titles they've obtained.

Now of course this is just speaking of what I see on a website. You may meet these folks and decide they're 100% for you, on the level, and great to work with. I'm just calling it how I see it.

I have not seen the website, but watch out for any type of contract. Many of them are rediculous. (I hope I spelled that correctly!) A breeders garantee is not the same as a breeders contract.

RIdiculous. ;-) Guarantee;-)

Yes, I didn't take the time to go through the whole thing; I just read the overview on the additional info page, and a few things jumped out at me as well. Melissa's points, especially. Good point, Matthew. There is a big difference between a contract and a guarantee.

I wouldn't say contracts are bad; I sure have one, and honestly it only protects the dog the way I have it worded, but now that you mention it, I remember reading "limited registration". When I hear limited registration, I think it better be a pet quality dog or have some kind of flaw (coat, soft ear, etc.) and then the money should be adjusted accordingly.

I am still waiting to hear how much they charge, as I'm very very curious when they mention ltd. reg. and "more expensive than other breeders" on the same page.

Melissa brings up a couple of good points that I would talk to the breeder on. The deposits, the 1/3 refund.

The bottom line is how comforable you would be with the breeder. Spend a lot of time talking to any breeder, before making a decision to get any pup, make sure you are on the same page.

My contract also states that a pup will be returned to me if I am sending a replacement pup. I added this after another breeder had a puppy euthanized because of the owners vets advice and misdiagnosis of HD. It was pano.

Do I want the pup back? What are you nuts if the home is a good one and will provide the medical care the dog will need? I will give myself the option though of getting the pup back here if needed. I will give the puppy the option of getting a second opinion.

Talk to this breeder, talk to more breeders. You can kind of get a feel for it. Ask the breeder for the name of a puppy buyer where things did not go well and contact them and see how they said the breeder responded.

Ask them if they have ever replaced a pup for cirumstances not called for in the contract........

Big difference between taking the dog back if needed and demanding it under any circumstances. More often than not, it's a sly way for breeders to get out of replacing a dog. They know the owner is attached and doesn't want anything bad to happen to the dog. My favorite is when the breeder actually puts in the contract "buyer must return defective dog to seller for humane euthanization in order to receive replacement pup." Yep- I actually saw that in a contract....

Back on topic...

Tom, I think the advice and questions you've received are about as good as you're going to get. There is always a risk; the key is to know what the risks are and do what you can to minimize them through education.

One other thing I would add...any breeder who says "my dogs have never produced a dysplastic dog in 40 years" IS LYING. That really means they sell them only to pet homes who never xray, if they're not just straight up lying.