So with my nearly 1.5 year old dog Roxy - she puts her paws on people (if I could use one word to describe her it would be 'Bafoon').

I had a dog trainer/behaviorist out to my place a few weeks back and he said her doing this is a sign of dominance. He also told me not to define dominance as aggression, but define dominance as trying to control a resource; putting her paw on a person is her way of trying to manipulate or control the person (for attention / interaction).

Last night I watched the Dom & Agr dogs DVD and today I watched the pack drive DVD and picked up the info that lifting a paw was submission.

I'd love to hear some clarification on this.

Picking up a paw or actual pawing?

In Roxy's case she comes up and typically either sits on your feet, gives you a butt body slam to your legs and then (or if you are already sitting) puts a paw up on you. Then she tries to mouth your hand, or paw with the other foot (ie climb up on you).

The feeling I get from it when she does it is the same feeling I get when my teenage sons try to treat me as if I am a teenage-boy and bump me with an elbow or make annoying sounds. :-P Attention getting actions.

She'll also do this with her paw when you are trying to do something like leash/collar her, examine her etc.

If I give a firm but not 'irritated' "Aaaat" (my version of no) she typically becomes 'couch potato dog' and slouches over, melt onto the floor and start talking to herself while trying to paw at you upside down :-\.

Our 2 dogs had their first fight 3+ weeks ago and we are going to make changes.

If I am starting with the pack DVD suggestion of the 'isolation' period (aka boot camp) should I be correcting for this pawing behavior in an effort to establish MY position (and not being dominated - as in, don't paw me and there is no other acceptable alternative, just stop doing what you are doing)?

I assume while you are in 'boot camp' mode its more about laying down simple rules and boundaries for sheer civil interaction and not really teaching 'something' - except 'no' means stop what ever it is you are doing (?).

I've tried the ignore mode (remove myself from standing there being pawed, remove the paw and walk away) since I had the initial consult with the dog trainer/behaviorist 2+ weeks ago. But it is actually getting worse (which I am sure is a due to the cut back in physical activity due to the dog fight injuries and separation/change of life style issues).

Dog pads are RUFF.

Well, just raising a paw is generally kind of an appeasement gesture, I'd say.

But actually trying to control the human's movements would be a pushy dominant-type behavior. And the other stuff you describe makes it pretty likely that it's a dominant-type behavior, IMO.

If this was my dog, I'd be combining NILIF and pack structure with teaching the dog the appropriate greeting behavior(s).

Is this mostly in greeting situations?

If it's also in situations where the dog is demanding attention, I'd probably turn my back and walk away, and I'd be marker-teaching behaviors I do want in place of the pawing.

With this type of dog, NILIF would extend to all petting, all attention.

Are you separating the dogs? Dog fights are nothing to fool around with.

There's a lot more, like the collar/leash, but this reply could go on for a whole page. Basically, the dog earns a walk, earns a car ride, earns food, earns a pat.

Also, even though it might sound off-topic to you, tons of structured exercise and mini-ob sessions all day (short and fun) will do a lot towards lowering the pent-up-energy level.

I stopped this by using a clicker.

I completely ignored him while his paw was on me but when it hit the floor I counted off a second and then clicked and treated.

I eventually paired it with the word off and I only have to refresh this training every couple of months to keep it working.

Hell, go with it and teach him to give every paw so you can trim the nails w/o hassle

Someone asked when my dog does this - oh in greeting situations, first thing in the morning, if you sneeze, blink, cough... basically anytime she looks at 'you' and you look back. :-\




I have a question.

The dog puts his paw on you to demand attention.

I'd like to know the difference between;

1. Using 'marker' (reward based - treat/click) training to 'keep all 4 feet on the ground' or 'keep your calm and I'll pet you to replace a behavior with another

or

2. Use a 'correction' to END the undesired action. 'Stop doing what you are doing and I really don't want something else'.


With the horses, ok well even with my dogs... I have an electric fence. I didn't have to teach the horses or the dogs 'another behavior' to keep them from touching the fence. They touched the fence, got zapped, and they don't touch the fence. They are not 'terrified' of the fence because my horses all eat out of feed pans that are tied off to the bottoms of the fence posts. And my dogs are not petrified of the fence because they'll walk along the fence line and they don't act nervous or fretful. They just don't touch the fence. That fence gets a WHOLE lot of respect (from me as well, LOL).

Same with kids - when my kids were toddlers, before language set in, I didn't offer them a cookie and a toy on the blanket in the living room as an alternative to touching the stove. Fooling around with the stove (or the electric socket etc) got a very stern and serious verbal. I also didn't offer the 'snack, toy, blanket' as an alternative to pestering me if I was on the phone or having a conversation with another adult - that earned them a seat in the time out chair(but then again maybe my parenting skills sucked?!?).

And I do that with the horses too. Crowding me while leading, nipping, pawing are things I don't try to teach a replacement behavior for, so that earns them an immediate correction. In my mind I'm not trying to 'teach' something I want, I just want what they are doing to STOP. If horses were out together and one invaded the space of another - the higher ranking horse would dish out some 'consequences' (evil look, biting, kicking). The higher ranking horse would not try to get the 'brat' to engage in a different behavior.

So I'm just wondering how this works with dogs. I am assuming if one dog does something to offend a higher ranking dog there would be similar consequences (gestures thru to biting if need be).

And FWIW I'm not against using motivation or praise (reward) during the learning/development phase and after a job well done, though kids might say different (*smirk*).

I can see that if I want my dog to come to me when I call, that using a 'positive' (my vocabulary in the training lingo is not advanced so bear with me) method such as a treat, affection, toy etc would yield faster and more earnest results from the dog than snatching a drag line and jerking the dog towards you. "Attract more flies with honey than vinegar". Make it a pleasant experience.

But if I didn't want ANYTHING from the dog - period - and the dog comes over to me and begins putting its paw on me, or trying to climb up on me while I am sitting on my chair - why would a 'correction' be less productive for the over all larger picture?

And I know with horses and kids you have to be fair, just as I'd expect to be fair with the dogs. You couldn't keep them locked up with no stimulation all day and then expect them to be behaved - so lets assume basics needs are being met (ie exercise, interaction with others etc).

I think I'm trying to learn the various learning models, but am not doing a good job at... spelling it out. :-P

 Quote: Kaye L. Barnes

I'd like to know the difference between;

1. Using 'marker' (reward based - treat/click) training to 'keep all 4 feet on the ground' or 'keep your calm and I'll pet you to replace a behavior with another

or

2. Use a 'correction' to END the undesired action. 'Stop doing what you are doing and I really don't want something else'.

There are more experienced trainers here that can break down the effects of each of those methods, but if it were me (maybe I'm just lazy) I'd probably go with:

3. Ignore the behavior at all costs.

This may cause her to be temporarily more persistent, especially if what you say is true about her having less overall exercise and attention of late, due to the fight, but once she realizes that pawing you gets her nothing, there won't be any reason for it to continue. Even bad attention (like weak corrections or escalating frustration) is some attention, and for a bored, pushy dog, it'll do.

My dog has never been one to paw me, but ignoring him worked beautifully (albeit, one must be resolute and patient about it) for his brief period of nose bumping me in the elbow whenever he decided he was bored and it was time for me to stop whatever I was doing.

It sounds like there are other pack issues to be resolved regarding this dog, her canine house mate, and you - their leader - but that's enough for a whole nother topic...

~Natalya

Yes, I agree.

I want to pick my battles, and also: I'd rather teach a different behavior any time I can do that instead of just correcting.

Teach wanted door behavior rather than correcting for unwanted door behavior, for example.

I want to reserve flat NO for when it's needed, and teach the behavior I do want to replace the one I don't want in most other cases.

If NO is needed, use it. JMO.

 Quote: Kaye L. Barnes

... Same with kids - when my kids were toddlers, before language set in, I didn't offer them a cookie and a toy on the blanket in the living room as an alternative to touching the stove.

Right.... that's what I meant about picking my battles. The stove would be more like blowing me off on a trained proofed recall, or handler aggression ... but not so much like putting a paw on me.

But I'm just saying my general training preference, and I also can't say that I have always stuck to that approach, either, when I was irritated or busy.

 Quote: Kaye L. Barnes

But if I didn't want ANYTHING from the dog - period - and the dog comes over to me and begins putting its paw on me, or trying to climb up on me while I am sitting on my chair - why would a 'correction' be less productive for the over all larger picture?

Actually, you do want something from the dog...a different behavior than the one being offered.

The basic thing to remember is that behavior that is reinforced/rewarded is more likely to be repeated, period. So, the more you reward/reinforce the behavior you want to see (the 4 on the floor, for example), the more likely your dog is to display that behavior, rather than the one you don't want.

Also, intermittent reinforcement is the strongest reinforcement schedule there is. That means that when a behavior is rewarded sometimes, but not every time, that the animal will work hardest to achieve a reward because it doesn't know when one may come for the offered behavior.

So, if you give your dog any attention at all when it's pestering you, that is giving it reinforcement (in the form of attention). Even punishment can be regarded as a form of attention, and unless the punishment is severe enough, just correcting the behavior may not be as strong a deterrent to it as reinforcing the behavior you want to see. (You don't see not doing something as offering a behavior, but actually, the dog is offering you an alternative behavior...not pawing or pestering you.)

Another thing about using corrections as opposed to rewarding desired behavior is the effect it will have on your relationship with your dog, period. You will build a much stronger relationship by rewarding behaviors you want to see than you will by only correcting unwanted behaviors.

One more thing...it is a good idea to save corrections for things that really mater (e.g., safety issues), and for when a dog has already learned a behavior but is refusing to perform. If you use corrections for the everyday simple stuff, like attention-seeking behavior, you'll be spending a lot more time correcting your dog than rewarding the behaviors you want to see.

Lots of words I know...

leih

 Quote: leih merigian

 Quote: kaye l. barnes

But if I didn't want ANYTHING from the dog - period - and the dog comes over to me and begins putting its paw on me, or trying to climb up on me while I am sitting on my chair - why would a 'correction' be less productive for the over all larger picture?

Actually, you do want something from the dog...a different behavior than the one being offered.

The basic thing to remember is that behavior that is reinforced/rewarded is more likely to be repeated, period. So, the more you reward/reinforce the behavior you want to see (the 4 on the floor, for example), the more likely your dog is to display that behavior, rather than the one you don't want.

Another thing about using corrections as opposed to rewarding desired behavior is the effect it will have on your relationship with your dog, period. You will build a much stronger relationship by rewarding behaviors you want to see than you will by only correcting unwanted behaviors.

Great post Leih.

It's so easy to resort to little corrections for minor offenses, but in addition to often not being wholly effective, they really do change the relationship you have with your dog. And as it pertains to children* - I don't currently have any, but I sure appreciate those parents who are constantly engaging with and thinking about how to change their child's poor behaviors into desirable ones, rather than those who sound like broken records stuck on "NO!" - the later of which always seem to be surrounded by exceptionally unruly and thoughtless rug rats.

*Absolutely not directed at anyone here, just a personal observation.

~Natalya