Hello,

I've had my one dog for 5+ years (Puddles, aprox 6 yrs old, aprox 50 pounds), and the other dog (Roxy, aprox 1.5yr, 70 pounds) for just about a year.


I stumbled upon this website when I had a first dog fight 3 weeks ago. There was no obvious trigger (we were up at the barn, the dogs had been outside all day, no food/toys, no one else was there and I was 10 ft away hanging lights). The fight ended up with Puddes needing 8 stitches to the side of the face and multiple puncture wounds, and Roxy with scrapes and lame in one front leg.

I had a local trainer come out about a week and a half later to for a 2 hour consult. I have ordered 3 videos, the dominant dog collar, and 2 muzzles.

Up til this point my girls got along fine for a year+. Neither dog had any issues like barking, destroying things, digging, hyperactivity in the house, aggression towards people/our cats. But I now understand that the younger dog probably hit adolescence, I've got 2 females and our days of '2 dog freedom' are now over.

We didn't allow the dogs on the furniture, in the bedroom, beg for food, invite them to jump etc. But I have never done formal dog training (quiet honesty I don't know anything about dog training)with either of them beyond 'sit' (by pushing down on their rump) or commands like 'wait' or 'leave it' because I'd physically block their movement.

I am OVER WHELMED with information - I have no idea where to start with my dogs on basic general obedience, obviously I have no clue how to put things in 'order'.

 Quote:

"A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again."

So, until I get the DVD's in the mail (and which DVD should I start with?) I'd love to have some experienced help in sorting out what to do with my dogs right now.
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My life style with them has changed drastically since the fight, and quiet honestly I've been winging it. I need a plan.

I did a consult with a trainer. He since both dogs were injured (one unable to wear a collar and the other very lame) he suggested I wait for them to heal, but in the meanwhile 1. get them crates and keep the separated, 2. "nothing comes for free" not treats, not toys, not affection 3. Start leash walking the younger (lame) dog a little at a time, and the other dog when I can get a leash on her.

The second thing I did was I found this website, ordered DVDs (Dom/Agg dog, pack structure, obedience), dominant dog collar and muzzles (got the muzzles already and based on the many articles I have found have began introducing the dogs to the muzzles using treats).

The dogs were used to being outside on the farm for up to 5 hours a day where they could run (and run they did!) freely. Though I initially had the youngest in a crate while in he house for about 3 months, they both now (well pre-fight) lived at liberty in the house.

I do not have any kind of fenced yard (our property is bordered by electric fencing). And at this immediate time I do not have crates.

So at this time I am playing a jugging routine with making sure one dog is always in the house if one is outside at the farm with me - or that one dog is locked in a bedroom (which is kind of a oxymoron considering I never let the dogs in the bedrooms before).

I've also been trying to keep the youngest dog on a leash as much as I can (make her walk with me while I do farm chores).

I've been taking the older dog with me to work a few days a week to get her out of the house more since she is the one getting locked up more.

Typically the dogs were out with me for about an hour and a half in the morning while I did farm chores. They'd go in the house while I went to work, then back outside with me from about 4pm - 9pm for more farm chores, then back in the house with me for the night.

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Now I've got two SUPER FIT dogs who are feeling better, who are getting 50% less exercise who are now developing manner issues due to all this pent up energy (from no longer having a playmate to run with and now only getting half as much outdoor time). I assume I should cut their food back(?). *sigh*

I would love to hear how people organize their schedules with multi house hold dogs with dogs that need to be separated. I am full of questions on exercise routines, if both dogs need to be crated, if you should rotate one out and one in... etc etc etc.

So, here I humbly am, ready to learn.

(with sore fingers from giving my dogs treats for working with the muzzles - how do you give your dogs treats and keep the skin on your fingers ?

Kaye,
I would tell a raw beginner that your first step is to separate what problems can corrected via managing them ( like the step of using a crate ) versus what problems need to be trained for ( the dog won't stay on command, for instance ).
This sounds elementary, but it's a huge leap in caring for your dogs.

We've discussed this step *many* times in many training threads, you'll see that it's mentioned frequently for problems of all kinds....

Hope that helps!

Kaye, Will is one of the very most experienced people on this forum. His advise is golden. Seperate these dogs for starters. Get & use crates. Many of us with multiple dogs have had or have issues with dogs not getting along. Sometimes with a good deal of training & pack leadership they will be able to eventually be reintroduced & live together with CONSTANT supervision, sometimes they will be needed to be seperated forever. This is just the facts of multiple dog living. Some dogs are fine together & some never get along...or as you may have, when dealing with a 2nd dog, now maturing, they no longer get along. I will say that very often having more then one bitch is a house is more difficult then having multiple males. Also when bitches fight it is often more violent..as Dennis Jones here once put it:QUOTE: "when bitches fight it is to breathe & when males fight it is to breed". I believe that he has 2 or 3 in his house. Many times once dogs have had a bad fight they will never be able to be safely together again. It is your job & responsibility to keep all the dogs in your pack safe including safe from one another.

When having to live with dogs seperated it is double the work, as you are now finding out. It means that you have to spend equal time with each dog training, exercising, etc etc. I have had 3 at one time & had to triple everything. It is not easy. Eventually, One male got along with 1 male, but not the female, the other male got along with the female but only for short periods of time. So it was a balancing act. The hardest part is making sure that they never get a chance to get at each other. You have to allow the extra time in your schedule to give the dogs the time that is necessary for them. Physical exercise is esential, but so is mental exercise. Training obedience & teaching fun commands/tricks, playing 'find it' games are all mental stimulation & go along way to tiring the dog out. Your dogs have had a good time running free with little obedience or boundries. It will be harder on you to now put these in place. You will need to exercise the dogs instead of them exercising themselves. Start the obedience training in the house where there is minimal distractions. Eventually more the training outside which will increase distractions. This process takes time depending on the individual learning curve of the dog. I personally would keep the dog on a long line until reliable (90% of the time repetedly) training & recall is in effect. Having the dog on a leash or long line & following you on you daily chorse if good pack structure lessons for the dogs. This is a mental exercise for the dog also. It teaches them that they are ALWAYS under your control & leadership. My dogs basically are on the NILF program. Nothing in life is free. They work for their food (have to sit & watch me before allowed to dig into their food) Need to sit before going out or coming in the door. Have to wait at the top or bottom of steps until I go up or down. Have to sit to get affection. Have to sit & wait while I go out the door or in the door to go to the truck for a ride or outing. You get the idea. To me much of this is just basic manners that I expect from dogs living in my home.

Nipping for treats is not allowed. My dogs are taught a 'be nice' command from 8 week old pups. This means not pushing me, bumping me, nipping or biting at my hand to get treats. Have the treat in a closed fist after the dog performs the command it gets the treat, but not until it takes it gently from your hand.

The dvds are a good start. I would not use the muzzles in place of good training. If they should ever get it off you are in for big trouble especially if one gets it off & the other is muzzled. I personally would not do it. You need to have good training in place before you reintroduce these dogs with the muzzles on. I would also say it would be a good idea to have someone else there with you when you do.

You might want to look at the info on this site for MARKER TRAINING. It is a great way to train & the dogs lOVE it. Just a little story about the effects of marker training on dogs...... I was in the kitchen with the tv on watching Jepordy & I knew an answer to a final question that the contestants didn't & said a loud excited happy 'YES' when I heard the answer...My female came running into the room becasue she thought that I was doing marker training with my male & she wasn't included. It was pretty funny.

Hello again.

I will first say I got the 3 DVDs today. I sat and watched the Dom/Agg dog DVD first. I think all people thinking of getting a dog should watch that video. If I had seen that video a year ago I would have, more than likely, not become a 2 dog house hold. And if I did become a 2 dog house hold I would have had a forewarning that a 2nd dog IS NOT the 1st dogs companion (ie like having a 2nd will be the 1st childs distraction and play mate). :-\

But you live and learn - and move on. I train horses and teach people horsemanship and riding so I see this all the time when someone just goes out and 'buys a horse'.

So - watching the agg/dom dog DVD answered a LOT of my questions, and addressed a few of my key doubts and concerns.

I was having a struggle with the very BASICS of discipline/corrections for taught behaviors (sit, come, stay, or a sporting activity) VS a general behavior. I know this with horses, and learned it over 20 something years. Horses and dogs are not exactly the same as far as animal behaviors - but by watching this DVD it put one of my feet on some what solid ground.

I was having doubts, but just watching this video gave me one solid piece of the puzzle. And now I have some faith, some confidence to reach out to get the next puzzle piece.

I guess from having horses I have learned the sad consequences of picking the wrong training path - and not only setting back your training but potentially 'scaring' the animal. 've also seen people have such bad experiences they eventually want out. And since I knew 'this' but didn't know dogs, I was very leary in going forward until I got some material that made sense.

So yes - the DVD was exactly what I needed to regroup myself and begin to forge on.

I also felt a tremendous amount of guilt knowing this fight (and the injury to the one dog, the vet bills, and the total change in life style) happened 'on my watch' while my S.O. is deployed.

We run a pretty tight ship with our horses. People and safety first, respect - consistency - discipline - and continued learning and practice. Period. But I didn't do that with our dogs.

I felt terrible when I told my S.0. what happened and he can't do anything to help. I also feel terrible that he'll be coming home in a time frame where I will still be trying to sort all this out with the dogs - and he'll be coming home to his own adjustments from being deployed. The last thing I wanted him to come home from the chaos of a war zone was 'dog boot camp' because of a 'war'.

So thank you for 'hearing me out' (I am sure I am one of hundreds of 'green' people who have come here for the same exact reason as myself). I know what it is like to be the experienced person and see countless people go thru hardships with their animals because of lack of education. Now I am the greenie needing help.



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I am going to do my best to get two dog crates (scanning craigs list etc) as soon as I can.

I talked to my S.O. about getting a fenced area as far as runs or outdoor kennels. Right now I have a dog area up in my barn, but I want it OUT of the stable and away from our horse clients - and he thought it was a very workable idea.

I also think I am going to fence in my horse riding arena with no-climb wire mesh fencing so I have a constructive place to work with my dogs since we don't really have a 'fenced in yard'. At least I can write that off as a business expense *smirk*.

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PS - I had no intention on using the muzzles any time soon, and certainly not as a band-aid. Ordered them to have them, and start getting the dogs introduced to them slowly with out pressure.

Best of Luck Kaye, It sounds like you're well on your way with these two.

Stop by and let us know how things go with training and structure. I'll be interested to hear how things go and how they respond.

BTW Thank your husband for me for his service to our country. I hope he's home safe and sound soon.

Kaye, 'Freecycle' is a good place to check for crates also. You have to register, but all the postings are free (and so are the items being offered).

If you are not familiar w/ marker training (clicker-type training), take a look at the link I will post. Marker training is a great way to improve your bond w/ your dogs and build their confidence. You do not need to use a clicker to do this. I think Ed covers the basics of marker training in his obedience DVD. you will be thrilled with how quickly your dogs will respond to this method of training.

Don't beat yourself up over the dog fight. The situation is what it is.
It sounds like you have a good handle on the reality of the situation now; time to move forward!

And I'm sure your S.O. will be impressed with how far you've come with the dogs by the time he's home. (which I hope is safely and soon)

Here's a free e-book that you can print or read on-line:
http://leerburg.com/pdf/markers-clickers.pdf

Here's a video of Ed working w/ his new pup. Marker training...
http://leerburg.com/playem.htm?name=flv/12-17-09-bart.flv

And here's Roni Hoff (a moderator on this board, with her new pup) She and the pup are amazing:
http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/260296/page/1#Post260296

Thank you for the words of support.

I plan to stay inside today and watch the basic obedience DVD and continue looking for 2 used crates.

AHHHH Freecycle - never thought about that one! Thanks.

Kaye, it sounds like you are getting some good info from the DVDs. You dogs will benefit from your new knowledge. It takes commitment & consistency to have well trained dogs. You can do it.

Horses & dogs are totally different & think very differently. Horses are prey animals & dogs are predators. They react to stimuli differently.

I have ridden since & was 7 & have trained my own horse for x-country. I know what it is like to see people get the wrong hoses for their needs & level of knowledge. People do the same thing with dogs. We all do things on a whim at one time or another in our lives. Don't beat yourself up for it. Learning & correcting the situation is what you are doing now. Your dogs will thank you for it.

Good luck & keep us posted on your progress.