Greetings,

We have 3 dogs in our home: Connie , 3 yo BC/Lab female, adopted 3/2008; Suzie , 3 1/2 yo ??? female, adopted 11/2008 and Monty , 10 mo male Husky/cattledog? adopted 11/2009 , all altered. One of the most difficult problems we've got right now is Suzie's aggression issues. I feel that I am either going in the wrong direction with her or making mistakes that render a potentially good approach somewhat ineffective. I am sure we could do much better.

The problem with Suzie is that she reacts strongly (growling, teeth bared, hackles raised, barking) every time she gets unwelcome attention (a strange dog looks in a wrong way, a strange person acts towards her in a way she does not like) or somebody who is not welcome invades her space. It was much worse when we got her (she used to evacuate her anal glands almost all the time) and she is doing better now. She spent a year in a rescue group owner of which got recently charged with 142 counts of animal cruelty and neglect. This may or may not have affected Suzie but IMO it should be considered in addition to her genetics. It is quite possible that she would never be completely without issues but it must be possible to at least reduce the severity.

- Suzie is very possessive of valuable resources and plays keep away every time we toss a toy for her (she would bring it back and circle. If I am patient she would lay down and release the toy eventually. Sometimes might growl a bit but will release the toy to me 100% when I take it from her). I cannot play tug with her because she gets too intense and growls.
- She never lunges or tries to go after another dog during the walks outside and tries to position herself so that I am between her and the threat and would try to avoid confrontation if not cornered.
- If she is laying at my feet under the desk and one of the cats jumps on the desk (or is guarding any other resource at home and one of our dogs or cats approaches) she would lunge at him barking, snarling and baring her teeth. Does it every time if allowed, even after several lvl 8 corrections ("no", then a strong downward pop on the leash, she acts as if I just killed her). She never makes contact and always stops within inches on her own... so far. In time she would either stop lunging, stay the same or escalate and bite depending on how we manage this. I would prefer it to be the first case and need all the help I could get.
- Inside the house she could display what seems to be assertive (or dominant?) behavior towards Connie: legs stiff, tail up and stiff, leaning forward, intense stare, licking her lips (isn't this a sign of fear or of a dog being unsure?) and tried to T-off several times, circles with a hint of a butt-slam. She never tried to actually bite anybody but can put on quite a show. We do not tolerate this behavior and correct her or redirect. They ignore each other when both in crates but Suzie will parade in front of Connie sometimes when she is out and Connie is in the crate. We do not allow this and redirect.
- Connie and Suzie had a fight several days after we got Monty in November (our fault, he was out of his crate when he shouldn't have been): Connie and Monty played in the middle of the room and Suzie *hated* it. She barked and raised hackles and Connie turned around and showed her who is the boss in the heat of the moment. We reverted all the way back to the groundwork with all of them and at this point they are around "on leash when not crated" stage, Connie is off leash when she is not crated (she is doing the best) and Connie and Suzie are never out of their crates and off leash at the same time. The crates are next to each other in the living room .
- We take all 3 of them out for a walk at the same time and there is never any negative interaction between them when outside the house, everybody is calm and relaxed.
- Suzie would bite on her bed when excited. Does not show interest in a substitute chew toy 80% of the time, would just stop biting the bed.

I have been doing marker training with all three of them and use commands she knows best - "no", then "watch me", "sit" etc. - to redirect Suzie if her transgression is minor, like a little growl with no intensity. Whenever she fails to obey a redirect command she gets a lvl 3 correction ("no", then light pop, flat collar, makes her look at me but not hit the ground), which usually works. If the level of aggression is high (loud growl, hackles raised, legs stiff) there is an immediate "no" then lvl 6 correction with no attempts to redirect. After she submitted and hit the floor there is a short pause to capture the moment after which she is ignored. She only gets corrected for this kind of behavior. She was not getting any corrections at all till after the fight. As per advice in D&A DVD any show of aggression *always* gets a correction now.

There have been multiple threads, over the last month or so, about agression issues in multi-dog households. I would do a search & read them. Alot of good info on these threads that may help you.

This has been said many times before.....keep them seperated. Also, many times once dogs have fought, they may never be able to be together again without fighting.

Ana, I am not experienced w/ multi dog issues, but I wanted to highlight something you said and perhaps someone w/ experience can comment.

A dog that empties its anal glands involuntarily is an extremely fearful dog. Her other behaviors also seems fearful, like when you are walking and she places you between herself and another dog. If her aggression is fear-based, physical corrections will probably escalate her aggression.

Thank you Anne,

I have been reading both the website and the forum since November, everything that looks even remotely like it could be relevant to our situation. I tried to apply what I learned:

- establish myself as pack leader with all my dogs;
- obedience training with markers;
- managed environment (set the dog up for success, don't put the dog in a position where they could make mistakes).

The results I am getting with Suzie is not what I hoped for. I hoped somebody will point out my mistakes to me or provide any helpful comments: is this a lack of leadership? Not enough formal obedience? Need more socialization? Is it likely that improvement is possible or does it look like this is the best we could expect?

I had 0% experience with dogs before Connie and all my information comes from this website. It is very difficult to learn something without interaction without a feedback.

Thank you Lynne,

I thought about corrections a lot. Ed says that "aggression towards another dog or human should be always responded to with a hard correction". It might not apply in Suzie's situation. I think I shall try to avoid corrections and see how it works. Apparently, correcting her didn't.

Do you allow the dog to stay back away from strangers who might want to loom, touch, make eye contact, feed, etc.? Do you place yourself in the position of protector? (I ask this because I think it's the right thing to do with a fearful dog, to establish yourself as leader/protector.)

In what situation would these things happen? "Whenever she fails to obey a redirect command she gets a lvl 3 correction ("no", then light pop, flat collar, makes her look at me but not hit the ground), which usually works. If the level of aggression is high (loud growl, hackles raised, legs stiff) there is an immediate "no" then lvl 6 correction with no attempts to redirect."

And "Suzie is very possessive of valuable resources and plays keep away every time we toss a toy for her (she would bring it back and circle. If I am patient she would lay down and release the toy eventually. " Have you played two-ball? How about teaching the release as a separate command unrelated to the fetch/game/playing?

"The problem with Suzie is that she reacts strongly (growling, teeth bared, hackles raised, barking) every time she gets unwelcome attention (a strange dog looks in a wrong way, a strange person acts towards her in a way she does not like) or somebody who is not welcome invades her space. " Have you been doing desensitizing work with her? Do you know what I mean? Also, is she getting lots of short, upbeat, confidence-building marker sessions every day?

Do those crates have to be that way? That looks like pure anxiety for a fearful or nervy dog.

Quick search (not sure if they are completely applicable here):
http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=20&Number=262042&Searchpage=1&Main=25088&Words=fearful&topic=0&Search=true#Post262042

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=260358&Searchpage=1&Main=24972&Words=fearful&topic=0&Search=true#Post260358

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=20&Number=263022&Searchpage=1&Main=25172&Words=fearful&topic=0&Search=true#Post263022

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=18&Number=256890&Searchpage=6&Main=24726&Words=fear&topic=0&Search=true#Post256890

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/256007/page/0/fpart/2

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/256007/page/0/fpart/3

Thank you Connie,

 Quote: connie sutherland

Do you allow the dog to stay back away from strangers who might want to loom, touch, make eye contact, feed, etc.? Do you place yourself in the position of protector? (I ask this because I think it's the right thing to do with a fearful dog, to establish yourself as leader/protector.)

I am always between her and the "threat". I let Connie and Monty be approached and petted by people I feel good about. If Suzie wants to approach I let her and we have a party. If she does not want, well, she doesn't. If she approaches the person and wants to be petted and I feel good about it I usually guide them: squat, don't look directly in the eye, feather touch, stroke her calmly and slowly. Then we have a party, lots of treats. We keep it nice and short, thank the person and move on.

 Quote: connie sutherland

In what situation would these things happen? "Whenever she fails to obey a redirect command she gets a lvl 3 correction ("no", then light pop, flat collar, makes her look at me but not hit the ground), which usually works. If the level of aggression is high (loud growl, hackles raised, legs stiff) there is an immediate "no" then lvl 6 correction with no attempts to redirect."

1. Suzie is on leash at my feet under the desk, one of the cats approaches and wants to jump on the desk. Suzie follows the cat with her eyes. Maybe mumbles a bit. If the cat jumps on the desk and Suzie is still laying at my feet all is nice and good. If she gets tense and too interested, I tell her "no", "watch me" or "come here, sit", if she obeys I mark and treat, if she ignores me and starts moving towards the cat, I give her a light pop. At this point she usually turns to look at me and we do "watch me", "come sit", mark and treat. If she keeps ignoring me I get up and lead her away (to the crate, upstairs, whatever, away from the desk and the cat).

2. Rarely Suzie would think that Connie looked funny at her and put on the show in a flash, advancing on Connie slowly in a straight line, chest forward, etc. It hasn't happened in a while but she did it several times back in November/December after the fight. I was watching the D&A DVD and decided to try correcting this display of aggression.

These are the only scenarios where Suzie got corrected, no corrections outside the house because it is always clearly fear. It looks to me as in the first case it is "leave it, don't touch!" reaction and in the second case it looks like she's got dominance issues with Connie. What are we doing wrong that she still feels the need to duke it out (or do a preemptive strike out of fear and I misread it?)?

I think what you mean is that I should analyze the situations when Suzie gets corrected and try to avoid them, thus setting her up for success. Case #2 happens less and less often since the fight. Case #1 on the other hand has been repeating since we got Suzie and I do not see how to prevent our 4 8-year old cats from going wherever they please. I don't see how I could put every resource out of her reach considering she can be here and guard a resource over there: there is a meat on the kitchen counter, Suzie is under the desk and one of the cats is going into the kitchen. It looks like this calls for stronger leadership...

 Quote: connie sutherland

And "Suzie is very possessive of valuable resources and plays keep away every time we toss a toy for her (she would bring it back and circle. If I am patient she would lay down and release the toy eventually. " Have you played two-ball? How about teaching the release as a separate command unrelated to the fetch/game/playing?

Yes, two-ball works. I haven't tried a separate release command. The only things she gets in her mouth are those she wants, then it is already a kind of game to make her let go of the "prize". Perhaps I should teach her pick something neutral before I try to make her "drop" it? I can always find a way to get the toy from her by either waiting, trading or tricking her and we are getting better, I felt this had to be mentioned because this issue is very distinct issue with her and may be important.

 Quote: connie sutherland

"The problem with Suzie is that she reacts strongly (growling, teeth bared, hackles raised, barking) every time she gets unwelcome attention (a strange dog looks in a wrong way, a strange person acts towards her in a way she does not like) or somebody who is not welcome invades her space. " Have you been doing desensitizing work with her? Do you know what I mean? Also, is she getting lots of short, upbeat, confidence-building marker sessions every day?

Every time we pass a potential threat on our walks I mark and treat every time she does not react (good, good, good, good, good Suzie, yes!). If she starts paying attention I make her "watch me", mark and treat. Or sometimes we stand to the side and do several basic commands or maybe turn around and go the other way, depending on situation, like it has been discussed on this forum many times.

Inside the house my husband and I take Connie and Suzie and do basic obedience side by side. Nothing bad ever happens between these two when they are busy doing obedience.

I do several short sessions every day with each dog.

Also, from anywhere in the house the dogs could see and/or hear strange people and dogs outside, very close to our house. Suzie often reacts to them, sometimes very strongly. I do not correct her for this, just tell her "quiet", "come here, sit", yes!- treat. We also have a "thank you, I'll check it out - it's nothing, relax" routine.

 Quote: connie sutherland

Do those crates have to be that way? That looks like pure anxiety for a fearful or nervy dog.

This is the only spot where they are away from the traffic downstairs. Anywhere else everybody would have to pass right by the crates all the time. Suzie is always calm and relaxed in her crate. There are also 3 crates in the bedroom in different corners. I do not notice any difference between the in-crate behavior upstairs or downstairs. Given freedom Suzie would go and settle in the crate that is next to Connie's every time. Is it absolutely necessary to move the crates?

 Quote: connie sutherland

Quick search (not sure if they are completely applicable here):

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post262042 - describes exactly Suzie's behavior outside. We have an appointment scheduled with a trainer next Saturday. We'll work on the behavior issues first and start more formal training when ready, perhaps tracking. Does it matter if fear/aggression is a learned behavior or faulty temperament? Is it treated differently depending on what caused it?

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post260358 - yep, snaps and growls at the other female in the house. They are physically separated. They are not going to be left alone in the house loose or even in the same room, no problem here. I have watched the following DVDs in order:

Pack Structure;
Power of Training with Markers;
Building Drive and Focus;
Power Training with Food;
Dealing with D&A Dogs;
Playing Tug;

and I am still fumbling my way with Suzie. Shouldn't have used corrections, probably . We do have a pack, that's why we use crates all the time and lock them now. NILIF. But all 3 of the dogs still get pushy with me, beg for food, pull on the leash etc. occasionally. Is this kind of behavior supposed to stop abruptly at some point during groundwork or does it peter out gradually? How does this weak(imperfect?) pack structure affect Suzie's issues?

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post263022 - luckily, Suzie is comfortable around both my husband and me and is getting more relaxed with us all the time. It does not look like the corrections I gave her so far had any effect on her relationship with us.

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post256890 - Nero is lunging at other dogs, Suzie always pulls away from them and would do anything to avoid contact... is this significant? She would lunge at particularly "bad" people who are advancing on her, though. We never go to dog parks or any places crowded with too many people or dogs.

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/256007/page/0/fpart/2 - I do not think I am correcting Suzie for fear . With the cats or whenever she is resource-guarding she does not act fearful. Her grand shows for Connie's benefit look more like dominance to me, it feels like I should be protecting Connie and I am very confused about this: is this improper pack behavior or is this caused by fear (I am not protecting her from Connie and she feels the need to protect herself?) and should be ignored/redirected/prevented from happening? I read articles on Theory of Corrections and Multiple Dogs and it is always recommended to correct improper pack behavior. Perhaps unlike Ed's very solid dogs Suzie should not be corrected even for this because of her instability... especially if I misread fear as dominance. Wes' post is very good and applies completely in our situation. This is what I have been trying to do, at least I thought so.

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/256007/page/0/fpart/3 - the books are sooo expensive! Cheaper than vet pills and lawsuits anyway, perhaps I should get them.

Most of the threads you reference have the web address typed in wrong, or maybe you copied them from the post-shorthand of my post's links (try a link in my post and then one in yours - I am guessing that you pasted your addresses from my post rather than from the actual thread you are trying to link).

So it's very confusing, because all but two of your links dead-end. The posts are a little long, as well -- fact is, few readers will read a post of that length that also refer to links that don't work. And few will go through figuring out what "Wes' post is very good and applies completely in our situation" means when it involves following a link and then finding what Wes said.

This is most likely why no one else has popped on here to give suggestions.

I'm just telling you this to kind of clarify the way many experienced handler/trainers will proceed when they give time to the board to help with questions. Fact of life. No need to respond to these items; I'm just pointing a potential (small) problem.



....................................................

OK, all that aside, you have a trainer coming Saturday? Is this someone with lots of fear and aggression experience?

It would be great if you would post back what comes out of that. It's not easy to diagnose online (it's actually not usually even possible) fear-aggression, etc.

Here's one item you asked that I can grab onto: Yes, weak pack structure will profoundly affect issues of timidity, fear aggression, dominance, and a lot more, because of the failure of the pack leader to present a strong reliable leadership presence.

The strong leader makes all decisions about acceptable aggression levels and is completely responsible for the pack's safety from danger (or perceived danger) from within and from outside the pack -- and the pack members know this, beyond a doubt. They know that it's not their call, not their problem, not their worry.

Here's another one: Yes, teach "drop it" long before the dog has something she shouldn't have. And yes, start by trading up.

"Every time we pass a potential threat on our walks I mark and treat every time she does not react (good, good, good, good, good Suzie, yes!)." Do you ever just march calmly on by? Is that possible?

"Given freedom Suzie would go and settle in the crate that is next to Connie's every time. Is it absolutely necessary to move the crates?" Sound like it's not.

"I do several short sessions every day with each dog." How much in particular with Suzie (not alongside any other dog)?


What is the worst problem right now? The "leave it" command with the cats and Suzie?

Ana,

I'm glad you're getting professional help with this. I have a feeling a lot of the solutions you're going to be given will have to do with how you live with this dog. Many times when you deal with the dog that fearful the solutions more have to do with management rather than training.

Think about what you really want out of this dog in the end, communicate this to your trainer and he should be able to give you an idea if it is achievable or what it will take to get there.

I don't wish to discourage you but sometimes, a dog is very simply a bad match to a home. It's obvious from your writing that you are unhappy with how things are right now, and have some guilt about it. Lay the guilt aside, it won't help this dog. If you approach it as a learning opportunity it will give you more insight into dogs that you could every hope for. However, if you decide it's more than you bargained for with this dog I wouldn't blame you if you returned this dog to a shelter. A bad match that is left to fester does more damage over time to the dog than it ever deserves.

Best of luck to you.