Hello: I have had rescue dogs with behavioral issues for years but just found this forum. I have read through a lot of posts and found them very helpful, but did not find anything that quite addresses my immediate situation so thought I would write in.

Roxanne is an estimated 5-year-old mixed breed. She is fiercely independent with an insanely high prey drive (will chase anything from a bee to a herd of deer, and has caught a bird in mid-flight).

Upon rescue Roxanne was very submissive, playful with other dogs, and loved all dogs. At some point around ages 2-3 she became dog aggressive on walks. Roxanne loves all dogs she "knows" (i.e., has met before) and loves to play with other dogs, but new dogs drive her crazy. As soon as she sees one, even from several blocks away, she is on alert, tense and focused (She can tell if she knows the dogs from far away). She becomes hysterical - she is very vocal, and pulling and lunging at the end of the leash. Fortunately she is only 45 lbs but she is scary.

Here are two interesting aspects: (1) If the owner of the other dog will hang out and chat with me, within about 5 minutes at most, Roxanne realizes the other dog is not a threat, calms down, and enjoys the other dog's company without any problems. From then on, she will be happy to see that dog on walks. (2) She does much better at locations with many dogs. I walk her off leash at places with many dogs without any problems. She is much worse in our neighborhood on a walk where she may see only one dog.

I have worked with three trainers with little improvement on this issue. Desensitization has not proven helpful because she tenses at first glance of another dog regardless of how far away. Also, she will take tons of treats and still act like she wants to kill the other dog. Or she will completely ignore treats. I have also been using an e-collar. However, I think I was trained to use it in what this forum calls "escape" style - giving the stimulation with the command. Even at the lowest levels, Roxanne has started giving me the evil eye and biting me when I use it during a tantrum of dog aggression. I even switched to using vibrate mode and she is still trying to bite me.

So, I have ditched the e-collar for now. My latest home-made training approach that seems to be helping is I make her down when we see another dog coming (which I have been trying to do for a while), hold her muzzle firmly and make her look at me. This may sound ridiculous, but she is so vocal it is just incredibly embarrassing. This seems to have worked best so far, but I just started so don't know if it will have any lasting results.

Other than this, Roxanne knows a lot of commands, behaves well (unless there is a deer around), and we practice commands regularly. She seems to have zero interest in pleasing me, or in responding to treats -- basically I would say she couldn't care less what I think (we've tried Nothing in Life is Free and other aproaches) -- but the e-collar has helped tremendously with basic obedience.

Since ultimately she likes other dogs, and is not aggressive after calming down, I am hopeful that there is a way to help her understand that she does not need to get upset every time she sees a new dog.

Any thoughts are most welcome.

Thank you!

amy

If desensitizing isn't working, you're too close to the other dog for your dog and you do not have your dog's attention.

BTW, do you mean you have your dog off-leash in groups of strange dogs?

"Look at me" is good. Holding muzzle, not so great.

Have you read any of the very detailed desensitizing thread here? If not, I can dig some up later today and link you.

Hi Connie: thank you for the response! I have read a lot about desensitization in the past, not on this forum, so I will look for the thread you mention and start reading. My challenge with this dog is that she is aroused as soon as she sees a dog, even very far away, so it is generally not possible to be in a place where she sees a dog and will pay attention to me. However, maybe i just have to try harder.

Although I have trained a "look" command, when she sees a dog she will not listen to any commands. However, yes, she is different when there are multiple dogs around and I do have her off-leash in those situations without problems. But, I do not believe it is a "leash" issue -- it has to do with multiple dogs being around. I am guessing that if she sees other dogs playing and relaxed, she is not aggressive but is somehow reassured. Maybe it has something to do with pack dynamics. But seeing one dog three blocks away on a leash, that drives her nuts.

Thanks again,
amy

It sounds a little like your spending all your energy trying to force her but your forgetting the other part of it. You have to reward her when she gives you what you asked for. Even if it's very brief, you have to pay her for that look.

When you say offleash with multiple dogs around, do you mean she's loose with the other dogs?

Hi Steve: thank you for the response. Sorry if I was not clear - yes, she is loose with other dogs. We frequent public open space for hiking, walking and swimming. There are a few sites in my area where dog owners tend to go and quite frankly it is much less stressful for me to take her to a site where I know there will be multiple dogs than to hike right near my house where we will see many fewer dogs. The more dogs, the better she behaves. We spent this morning at an area in open space where she swam and ran with many other dogs. She has never had problems in these situations. She sometimes seems a bit nervous upon first coming close to a new dog, but the nervousness does not last and she is not aggressive.

As I mentioned, in situations where she is very aggressive, that does not last more than a few minutes if the other dog is standing still and the owner and I chat for a while, giving my dog a chance to calm down.

However, I am not able to just walk right by another dog without insane hysterics that alarms the entire neighborhood and is quite scary. This starts from when she first spies the other dog, even if it is 2 blocks away.

Your advice is well taken - I need to do a better job of rewarding her when she remains calm in the presence of a new dog. As you said, even if it is very brief, I should work to pay close attention so I can mark it.

Thanks again, amy

If your letting her play with other dogs at the same time your trying to gain some indifference, your making it too tough Amy. Pretty confusing for her.

With stuff like this, everything needs to be very clear for her. On one hand your telling her to ignore something that the next minute your saying go entertain yourself with.

I would strongly suspect that you have been unconsciously cuing her to respond this way.

It's really hard not to, and it creates a feedback loop people get caught in.

The first thing I would do is arm myself so that if a fight were to occur, I would be able to end it authoritatively.
This would help anyone relax and dogs will read this in your body language.

Then I would examine my behavior as hard as I could....possibly even have a friend video tape you and the dog in an encounter from the beginning to end.
When I was coaching dressage riders or jumpers, I would video the sessions.
It was amazing what you can pick up from a video.

I would put her through a total boot camp from the beginning...social isolation the works.

I would work on having her focus on you on command..(train her through drive).....through progressively stronger distractions...NOT dogs...but other things......

I would proof that and then start working on the encounters with other dogs on leash.

Start from really far away.....and work closer only when she will focus on you.

I trained Eddie to the "no talk" command. Similar to leave it, but when I give it to him he will actually turn his head away from the dog or person.

Thank you, Steve. I had not thought of it that way. I guess I was thinking that it was good for her to have positive interactions with other dogs -- this way she is rewarded (through the play opportunity) for having those positive interactions.

However, are you saying she should not be allowed to play with other dogs at this point?

Thanks for your response.
amy

Hi Willie: thank you for writing. I don't think she can get in a fight when I have her on the leash - she is only 45 lbs and I have her leash in a safety loop around my wrist so she cannot get away. Of course, anything can happen so it makes sense to be prepared for anything.

The video is a good idea - I can try that. What should I be looking for?

I am not sure what you mean by social isolation but it sounds similar to what Steve was saying.

I will work on a focus command. I have never successfully trained her with any distractions at all, unfortunately, but I guess I just have to try harder. Sounds like i should work on getting her to focus on me, but as soon as she stops doing that, I move away from the distraction.

I like the "no talk" command. I will work on that. She is a smart dog who learns commands pretty fast. She is just so aware of everything in her environment.

Thanks so much for your insight.

I have also ordered two Leerburg videos - the one on dominant and aggressive dogs and the one on remote training.

Do you think the remote collar has a useful role here or should I just forget about it for now?

Thanks again,

amy

*shrug*

Frankly, I don't know why anyone lets their dogs play with other dogs, ever.

It baffles me.

___

*You* should be the source of reward, not other dogs.