OK. Here's an update on Gypsy. No SENSE-ation harness and no GL (I didn't really want to use either of them anyway). She passed the therapy test, but then flunked on our first observation because she became scared and when the lady that was doing the observation forced her into a small space despite the fact that she was afraid, she snapped at her. So, no therapy work for Gypsy.

After that, I contacted every trainer in the area and asked if they could help me with dealing not only with her dog-aggression but also getting her confidence level up so that she would not resort to fear biting (we have learned that she will snap at people who try to pet her if she is uncomfortable in the situation). Of course most of the trainers said they could, but then when they came to my home to "assess" her, she was all sweet and lovey-dovey, and since she gets along with Charlie (my foster dog), they said that they couldn't help me. I FINALLY found a trainer that has experience dealing with all kinds of aggressive dogs, and even agreed to bring his dog with him for our weekly training sessions. He was the only trainer that agreed to this. Of course, the dogs never get to interact, but how was he supposed to know how Gypsy behaved when she saw another dog if there wasn't another strange dog in the picture? So, now we're just in the beginning stages, and really working on her heel.

Heel is something I had trouble with from the start. She knows her basic obedience, and walks ok on a loose leash, but I never could teach her to properly heel. He said that we really need a good, solid heel for when we encounter other dogs, so that she will be right next to me and (hopefully) looking up at me instead of lunging against the leash at the other dog. Right now we're just doing point-to-point heeling, where we start out with her in a sit/stay in heel position and walk in a straight line to a designated (imaginary) point and make a right about-turn and come back. We can stop anytime, whether it be between points, or after doing a round or two, or whatever. We don't stop at just the points themselves. She automatically sits when we stop already, so that's something we don't have to worry about. Now, here's where I'm having a bit of difficulty.

The trainer said at this point in the game, do whatever it takes to get her to learn the appropriate behavior. For this exercise, he suggested using a treat (Pup-peroni) to bribe her to 1)Be in the right position and 2)Have her neck curled around my thigh and looking up at me. Of course, when he was there, she did wonderfully - even prancing and hopping to get at the treat. He demonstrates and then has me do it so he knows I understand how. I've been working with her for three days, just for very short periods of time (2-5min) per session, and I am having problems keeping her looking up at me. I've tried speeding up and slowing down, doing about-turns before or after I pass the designated point, really keeping my voice high and happy - moreso than usual, 'bobbing' the treat up and down in front of her nose to entice her to look up, and I even tried not feeding her for a day so she would be more interested in the treat, but that didn't work either.

She isn't focusing on anything in front of us; she just won't look up at me. It's like she's bored. She also lags a little. I'm thinking it may be because she's used to training with the prong and doesn't want to get corrected for going too far past me (especially on the turns). I try to encourage her to come forward with the leash, but I don't want to really correct her for it because I want her to be enthusiastic and not afraid. Should I switch to the slip collar until she's enjoying herself more? That way she will still get a correction IF she isn't paying attention on the turns, but I will still be able to encourage her forward when she lags without really correcting her.

OR, if anyone else has any insight, PLEASE let me know!!

I hate the word "bribe" in relation to *teaching* behaviors. The food in this instance is a "lure", meaning that it is used to lure the dog to approximate the desired behavior. Through repetition, the approximated behavior is refined and the dog gains muscle memory, then the food is faded and the dog still remembers the behavior. A bribe is different.

Since it's working when the trainer is there, and not working when he's not there, what is it that you're doing differently that could be making a difference to your dog's perception of what it is you expect?

Sure, she could be bored, or perhaps Pupperoni isn't really all that exciting to her. I don't know that I would feed that nasty stuff to my dog anyway, unless it was the one thing she would do backflips for. It's full of artificial coloring and preservatives. You might try cooking up some chicken liver, or cubing a little bit of cheese. If you can find it, Myzithra is really tasty (you can snack on it too, gotta keep the blood sugar up while training so you don't get cranky!).

Another thing is, it sounds like you're using corrections already. If you're still teaching her this behavior, then it's premature for corrections. Corrections should only be added in once the behavior has been learned. It sounds like perhaps she hasn't really learned it, so your corrections could be confusing her, which will definitely affect her attitude.

Another thought; once she's lured into the correct heel position, let her have the treat (this would be a reward). Try rewarding for every couple of steps in the correct position. If the treat is tiny, like it should be, she will not need to take time out to chew. Pair a word with the food reward, such as "Good!", so that eventually, when you say "Good!" it will have the same meaning as a food reward. Over time, you can take more and more steps inbetween treating her, once you can see that she's got the idea.

Also, it's okay to talk to her if she's not looking at you. Make sounds, say her name, get her back looking at you, and keep praising her as long as she's looking at you. Just don't repeat the "heel" command.

Just one last thing, if you feel that you're "bribing" your dog, and you have negative feelings or mixed emotions about using "bribery", you may be giving your dog mixed signals, creating confusion for her, and affecting her attitude. It's important that when you use a technique, you be confident about it and committed to it, because your dog will know the difference.

Here's the reason for using the Pup-peroni: It's easy to hold a whole stick in your hand and just have the end sticking out barely for the dog to nibble on. It also doesn't get your hand all slimy like cheese or chicken or whatever. Training time is the ONLY time she gets it. If there's something else that I can easily hold in my hand without it making a nasty mess then I'll surely try it! I have no idea what myzithra is.


Because all of her past training was done using the prong collar, and that's what I've been having to use when I take her for walks because of the chance that we might encounter another dog, he said to just keep putting it on her when we go outside for training to keep her in the routine. I'm kind of with you in that I think it might be hindering progress because she doesn't yet know what she's supposed to do and is afraid of being corrected, and so that's the reason for her lagging. That's why I was thinking maybe I should try it with just the slip collar or her flat collar until she is consistently looking up at me the whole time. The only time she gets a correction is when she isn't paying attention when I turn, and she pretty much corrects herself if she doesn't turn with me. I'm not correcting her for being slightly out of position or anything. One question, though; if she's just on her flat collar and happens to not be paying attention when I turn, will the 'correction' be effective? The trainer said that thIs correction will help teach her to pay attention to me, but I think it's actually making her lag behind so she can watch to see when I turn instead of looking up at me. I think I'm confused. Do I make any sense? lol

Another thought; once she's lured into the correct heel position, let her have the treat. Try letting her have one for every couple of steps in the correct position. That's what I've been doing. She's just not very treat motivated - never has been. Sometimes she'll nibble at it, other times she doesn't even sniff it, even when I put it right at her face.

Also, it's okay to talk to her if she's not looking at you. Make sounds, say her name, get her back looking at you, and keep praising her as long as she's looking at you. I have been doing this also, but the problem is that I can treat and coo and whistle and click and make all kinds of noise but I CAN'T get her to look up at me for more than a second no matter what kind of noises I make. She will look up for a minute, sniff the treat and maybe take a nibble, and then look back ahead again.

Thanks for your input!!

kristen, try pm'ing Lou Castle. His methods with the e-collar might be helpfull. He goes into it on his site. We are still unpacking, I haven't forgotten you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the clarification.

I would just keep the prong on her, but don't allow her to self-correct. You could even hook the leash clip to the dead ring. Find a way to keep her attention on you so that when you turn, she turns with you. You might lure her into the turn with the food, either holding it to her nose or at your hip so that her head is still in the right position. Things are changing, and she's noticing. Any time you make some form of transition, the dog will need some time to get used to the "new", because they're still used to the "old".

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That's what I've been doing. She's just not very treat motivated - never has been. Sometimes she'll nibble at it, other times she doesn't even sniff it, even when I put it right at her face.

This tells me that she's not crazy about the Pupperoni. I would use something different (Myzithra is sheep's cheese, BTW, and it's quite dry and not slimy). If you're afraid to get your hands slimy, you're really limiting yourself. I wear grubby clothes oftentimes when I train so I can just wipe my hands on my pants if I need to. Or you can hook a dish towel through your belt loop and have a rag handy. Another thing you can do is use food squeeze tubes like they make for camping. You can fill squeeze tubes up with wet dog food, cooked liver that's been pureed through a food processor (you'll need to add water), goat cheese, or anything soft that your dog likes and can be squeezed out. You can actually puree just about anything.

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I have been doing this also, but the problem is that I can treat and coo and whistle and click and make all kinds of noise but I CAN'T get her to look up at me for more than a second no matter what kind of noises I make. She will look up for a minute, sniff the treat and maybe take a nibble, and then look back ahead again.

A couple of things could be going on. One, you need to work on extended eye contact. You might do this as a separate exercise. Start by *marking* the eye contact ("GOOD!") so that she knows this is the behavior you want, and rewarding it immediately, then when she will reliably give you eye contact, start delaying the reward in tiny, millisecond increments so that she will hold eye contact until rewarded.

It could also be that the food isn't all that interesting. Try better food.

You could also try toy. Does she have a favorite ball, or does she like a ball on a string? How about using a ball as a lure, then when she gives the desired behavior, she gets a short game of chase-and-tug as a reward?

If the trainer can get her motivated with food but you can't, then it seems like she does have food drive, and either she is full when you are training her or she might be stress from all the prong you have been using in the past, stress can kill food drive, you might want to start from beginning, first train the attention then you can train the heel, you should have a word to mark the good behavior and to release the exercise this will release stress also if there is any, use the word ok or free or whatever you want as long as it is consistent, use a command like watch or look, at first she has no idea what it is but as soon as she look at you, use ok or free then give her the treat, timing is important, you must mark it immedietly when you have eyes contact, you might want to spit the food out from your mouth to shape the instint of looking up at you, once she understand the command and start looking up at you, the treat can come from your hand, when she got that down, and can look at you for 15 seconds or more, start moving the food with your hand in front of her face, if she look at your hand then say no, when she look back at you, mark it by ok or free and then give the treat, once she got this down, you probably could start heeling by just taking a few short step at a time and then release. Good luck.

Try spitting food to your dog. Bet that will get her attention!

She doesn't have a favorite toy. You really have to get her worked up to even get her to play with a toy. She could care less about the ball on a string, so I just play with Charlie with that. He's motivated by EVERYTHING, so training with him is a little easier in that respect.

I added a link to the prong collar, and I am still putting it on her before we go out, but I'm not using it. Instead, I tried hooking the leash to her flat collar, and she did WAY better. She was excited, and even jumping up and down beside me at the treat (I also decreased her food by 1/2 cup, too). She maintained eye contact a lot better, as well.

I think she was just afraid (because of previous training) that she was going to make a mistake and be corrected with the prong, and so she was tentative, but she was more than happy to work with the leash just attached to her flat collar, so I'll stick to that for a little while. I can still give a leash 'pop' when she needs to be corrected, and when I do that, the flat collar hits the prong and makes it jingle, and I think that helps as far as corrections go. She's reminded that it's there.

This week we're still just doing point-to-point heeling, but we're also working on sits in motion, which she grasped almost immediately. The first time she was a little confused because I didn't stop, but after the second time she was sitting right on command, without any guidance. We're also working on her return to heel from that position (or if she's just been in a sit/ or down/stay away from me) where I am facing away from her so all she has to do is walk forward until she's at my side; where I'm facing to either side; and where I'm facing her (like from the come-fore position). That way has proven to be the most confusing to her.