Hi everyone, got a question for you...

Well Kane is 8 months old now. Training him in Schutzhund. Now Im not sure if hes becoming aggresive or not towards other dogs. Theres times he will bark deep and hair will stand up and other times hes barking and wagging his tail. He has been socialized with my sisters dogs and he is fine with them. I take Kane to a trainer every Friday night. Kane will bark at the other dogs there but really doesnt pay too much attention to them (more interested in looking for the tug) but if they get to close he does bark like crazy and it doesnt sound like a "wanna play" bark. When I take him for walks and we come across a dog he barks hysterically and sometimes his hair stands and sometimes it doesnt. Now Im not like some people who feel that he has to play with other dogs in fact I just wish hed ignore them. I also know you shouldnt correct a puppy especially training for Scuthund as it can kill his spirit and drive. So should I correct him and if so how? I yank on the leash (with regualr flat collar) doesnt do anyting. I tell him "quiet" but nothing. I try to continue our walk without tripping over him but until the dog is out of site he acts like a nut.

I was planning on addressing this with the trainer but dont see him until Friday night and was hoping to get some insight before them. What am I doing wrong?

C'mon everyone I know you all have to have some words of wisdom! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I have read posts on dog aggression and know it has to be nipped in the bud now, but whats the best way to correct an 8 month old? Should I put a prong on him at this age just for the dog aggression? I dont want to mess him up.

Too bad you are getting a bit of a late start on this and he's already completely out of control when other dogs are around. Gonna take a bit to get him calm and in control at this point. I'm always interested when people don't want their dogs around other dogs at all so don't socialize them in the first year to be with hundreds of new dogs. And then have similiar experiences to yours.

I went the other way in wanting my dogs to not only ignore other dogs, but to KNOW other dogs. To be comfortable around other dogs. To 'speak' dog. To give off the proper signals so oncoming dogs don't get aggressive. And to be able to read the same signals from other dogs to seperate 'real' aggression from just another dog walking by. My 7 month old pup has at this point met hundreds of dogs/pups. Been to all my friends homes with good dogs. Go hiking with friends with dogs. Go to doggy play yards (when other dogs are known) to run and play.

The result of my method is I can take my dogs anywhere. They can go to a busy downtown street. They can be in the middle of the woods. They can be in a crowded building, school, hospital. They can go to a family reunion, and come on my vacations. So, for me, this method has worked well. All my dogs are very comfortable meeting and greeting new dogs and have learned ALL the skills they need to 'behave' well in public. I'm not saying they LOVE all dogs, they have definite friends vs. acquantences. But they darn well know they have to behave around other dogs (and people) and look to me for guidance. It is NOT their job to bark like maniacs everytime they see another dog. It is NOT their job to protect me from the chihuahua across the street. And, frankly, for a young dog like my GSD pup, some of the occasional 'protective' type barking she may do is probably more from a fear place than a mature and secure 'guard' place. And fear is not something I like to see. I know that 99% of the time my pup is NOT afraid because I've been socializing the bejeezers out of her since 12 weeks old and she is now trusting that if I am acting normal, and I say it's ok, well, then it is. So she doesn't bother making a fuss.

In some ways this seems like an obedience issue also because your dog is not listening to you in these situations. How are the obedience portions of your training going? Have lots of distractions been added? Other dogs in class? How is your dogs 'attention' during obedience? Maybe it would be a benefit to go to some other obedience classes?

Jenn, what kind of dog do you have and do you have any experience owning a dog with a working bloodline?

It can sometimes have an adverse affect on how the dog interacts with other dogs. The drives and type of temperaments that we look for in working GSDs don't always lend themselves to indiscriminate doggy friendship and acceptance of strange dogs . . .even with tons of socialization. I have dogs that are social enough to hang out with other dogs, but the instant there is any kind of dominant or pushy communication. . .it's Friday Night at the Fights baby. LOL There IS going to be that type of communication among the dogs at some point. They're dogs and that is part of their social interaction. I don't think you are going to be able to control that behavior, and I don't know if it is fair to do all the work to the dog to control that behavior.

Thus the importance of teaching a dog to just freaking forget the other animals around him, and to limit free access to other dogs.

Then you throw into the mix that with a working dog, you don't WANT him to desire the contact of other dogs. . .it provides a distraction for work and training. Ignore, ignore, ignore. . . .

So, my advice is to put the prong on the dog on a pull tab (not the leash) and correct the behavior, but also heavily reward the dog the instant he turns around to you and pays attention to you.

If you wanted to you could start this way.

Set up training scenarios where other dogs approach at a distance and the second that your dog sees them you get his attention and the second he gives it to you, you reward heavily and constantly while you move away from the area. Over time decrease the distance, then move to doing it on regular walks with strange dogs as you pass, then move to areas where there are dogs milling about or hanging out in the area.

Dog learns that other dogs are a cue to offer attention to you and to keep it on you for juicy rewards. Then you can also start to correct for lack of attention or attention focused on other dogs. (and the inappropriate behavior you've mentioned)

Two "pronged" attack to the problem.

Thank you both for your replies. When I got Kane he was 3 1/2 months old. I did socialize him with my sisters dogs which are the ONLY dogs I know that I trust. Before the time I got him I was "told" he was socalized. As far as a doggy class alot of dogs are thought to be nice and social and turn and dominate or attack other dogs. As far as the OB goes When I met Joel(trainer)he wanted to get a good foundation on bite work before doing too much OB. Kane does sit, platz, (working on stay) come and bring. Distractions were working on more and more.

Van Camp I think has more of an idea on what I mean. Especially with Schutzhund and a working background. I dont expect Kane to be friendly to all these doggs. I just want him to ignore them and forget that they are there. I just wasnt sure if a prong would be appropriate. I have heard not to use a prong on a puppy but under these circumstances I thought it was possible and wanted some insight. Again thank you both for replying.

VanCamp wrote:

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The drives and type of temperaments that we look for in working GSDs don't always lend themselves to indiscriminate doggy friendship and acceptance of strange dogs . . .even with tons of socialization.

I have to agree with VanCamp on that one.

I socialized the snot out of my Malinois. She is great with other dogs...up to a point :rolleyes: She pretty much just wants to be left alone to do her own thing. She is fine in a group situation until another dog tries to dominate her or when there are toys around (she is extremely toy possessive). She gives one warning, and only one before all hell can break loose. She does not go looking for a fight. In fact she greatly respects when another dog "owns" the toy. The problem is when another dog tries to take her toy (which is the one in her mouth, not necessarily the one that I own). The other week I was out walking her with a friend and her dogs (3 adult Border Collies that Alika has known since puppydom along with her 4 month old Malinois). My friend was dogsitting a pushy female BC that kept barking in my dog's face. Alika finally had enough and told her off. The look on the BC's face was priceless when she realized that she had bitten off a bit more than she could chew. She had "Oh Crap!!" written all over her face.

Jenn, at 7 months your pup is not mentally mature. To say that you will always be able to bring your dog everywhere is only a guess at this point in time. At the age of 7 months, I would never have suspected my girl to be so pushy in her behaviours with other dogs and would have said the same thing. At 18 months she came into her own and lost her interest in playing with dogs that she doesn't know (unless they are puppies as she is extremely tolerant of puppies <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ). She doesn't mind dogs hanging around her while she'a off doing her own thing but she's not interested in playing with them at all.

VanCamp's advice for Chastity is solid advice. However, I don't have to areas to run my dog off leash without taking the chance that she will run into other dogs whose behaviour I cannot control. She respects the truly dominant dogs, they are not the issue. It's the silly Labs and Goldens that don't take heed of her warnings that gets her into "trouble". I have found that a good recall has been to my advantage many times while out walking her in order to avoid any mishaps.

Natalie
http://alikamalinois.tripod.com

VanCamp Robert, http://www.wildhauskennels.com/docs.php?url=blitterpedigree.html has my pups pedigree, all SchIII except her mom who is SchI. And both parents came from Germany. So I believe that qualifies her as from a 'working' background.

My expectations from the socialization I do is NOT to have her love all dogs forever. I realize she will probably become more aloof like my older GSD as she ages. But because I have enabled her to gain the skills she needs to have herself to interact with other dogs, as well as to 'read' other dogs, I do not expect she will EVER

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but if they get to close he does bark like crazy and it doesnt sound like a "wanna play" bark. When I take him for walks and we come across a dog he barks hysterically and sometimes his hair stands and sometimes it doesnt

or

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I yank on the leash (with regualr flat collar) doesnt do anyting. I tell him "quiet" but nothing. I try to continue our walk without tripping over him but until the dog is out of site he acts like a nut.

like the original poster stated.

Why should my pup ever react like that? She knows almost all dogs she meets are friendly or ignore her. She knows to look to me if the other dog is acting wrong, and she knows what 'wrong' is because she's met so many dogs who ARE throwing off the proper signals and ARE behaving well. And because I train with other dogs and distractions, and other dogs don't worry her, she is perfectly able to ignore the other dogs. Whether in class or at any other location where other dogs are also around. Because other dogs are 'normal' and nothing to get upset about, she isn't (upset).

I think that having a high drive and protective dog does not mean it cannot be a well behaved, confident dog, that is EXPECTED to behave well around other dogs and people.

And that's what I have, so I'm thinking my method is working just fine. Course it takes alot of time. And organizing. And wanting a dog that I can indeed have as an active part of my life because I am not always worried about if she will 'go off' or NOT listen. So I don't have to leave her home all the time. I don't have to kennel her when I go on vacation, I have friends WITH DOGS who love to have her. I can take her on most vacations cause she's fine in hotels/motels/relatives homes/in the car/etc.

My dogs are EXACTLY what I want, and 2 of the 3 are GSD's and the youngest is definitely a 'worker'. And I socialized them. Alot.

Jenn, I don't really understand what "method" you are talking about. You have not offered a method, other than early socialization from day one with friendly dogs with the hopes that your dog learns to accept and be social with other types of friendly dogs.

In this case for our poster, too little too late.

No need to beat her up and show her how great you are in raising your puppy that way. Maybe that will be nice for her next time around, but this time she needs advice on addressing the problem.


As for the way you raise a pet dog, I'm not attacking that. I have no comments on your "method", in fact. I don't raise dogs with the same pet expectations that you do, so it seems that we would be comparing apples and oranges.

The only thing I do know from 12 years of experience now is that it is asking for trouble to allow dogs, who have it in their genetics to fight in the face of adversity, free access to other dogs.

I did not mean to beat her up. Sorry if that was the way the posting appeared to you. Hopefully some of you bothered to look at my dogs pedigree to see I do not have a couch potato greyhound at my house.

And I think you did understand my method. But if I need to describe better, I will. It's to saturate my dog with every and all things (not overwhelm) so that she takes everything in stride and is seldom fazed by anything. If I can get her exposed to as many new things as I can, and so most things are 'old hat' to her, that is my goal. When I walk down the street, I want her to be as easily able to ignore a fire hydrant, a loud bus, a siren, OR A DOG. By making her comfortable and used to everything, she is not stressed or over excited by any of those things. And I am able to work on any obedience issues that may come up with a calm and more focused puppy.

To further explain (and I thought I had), I take her everywhere with me. I PLAN where I'm going and who I'm going to meet on some days. If we are out and something seems to bother her (open grates, loud flapping tents, dog running along fence line) I may not deal with the problem that day and time BUT that is now my training 'challenge' that I have to come up with a way to get my pup to find as just another normal wacky part of life. Going slowly, using food, being prepared to guide her and knowing a little stress won't kill her. I use tons of treats, have to think alot to come up with a plan, and if I have to start 1/4 mile away from the distraction to make her comfortable before moving closer, then I do.

And I use a prong collar on her, but because she's coming from a reasonably calm place when I have to use it, it works and she listens.

Since I believe an 8 month old dog that is freaking at EVERY DOG they see, is coming from a fear base due to their age. I feel working on ridding the dog of the fear would be a better way to go than just using the harsh corrections that otherwise may be needed. Sure the prong may have the dog shut up eventually, but it may not be the way to make your dog believe 'tree, car, house, light post, dog' all as a normal and calm part of life.

Here's some other sites that talk about dog agression and socialization.

http://petplace.netscape.com/articles/artShow.asp?artID=1972

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/aggressionbasics.html

http://www.siriusdog.com/articles/article298.htm

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/lib-Puppy.htm#soc

I always try to think while I'm training, and if what I'm doing isn't working, in fact things are getting worse, I need to try something different. Just getting louder, or harsher doesn't seem to help with my dogs if they don't understand what the heck I'm asking. And since I want them eager to learn and to stay 'in the game' for learning I'd rather NOT be forced to come down on them like a brick wall. Especially when they are on an EXTREME sensory overload from being overwhelmed in a situation. If I can take away the 'overwhelmed' part it's amazing how they will be able to pay attention to me and then learn what needs to be learned.

Jenn, I know the pedigree of your pup very well <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm still angry with my hubby for not letting me get a pup from that litter!
I know Ernst has been disscussed at some length on other lists that people here frequent. He's a nice dog, and so is Ira. I think Chris is even going to do a repeat on that breeding? (from what her website says anyway.) I sure wish I had a different hubby next spring <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Sorry to stray off topic a bit...

As far as socialization with other dogs goes.. I have a "crazy" lab that i've socialized with other dogs and puppies. I think all it does is creates a bigger distraction for us. Before she just wanted to get the those humans,she would even "scream" at them out of sheer excitement. Now after all the socialization with dogs.. all she wants is to play with the dogs. I know the working GSD can be very different from a lab so maybe my experience has no merit here??...
I do know that all that socializing has made it a little harder to get my dog to IGNORE other dogs and focus on me!!