Hi! I've never posted on a forum before so hope I'm doing this right. We have a 1 yr. old Min Pin and a 4 mo. old GS. Neither one has had any training. Actually, I started the GS in puppy preschool but then found Leerburg and pulled her out based on what I was reading on the site. I just ordered "Your Puppy 8 wks to 8 mos.", Establishing Pack Structure" and "Basic Dog Obedience". I spent most of my day today watching the pack structure video. Now I have a few questions before I formally start training. To help answer some of my questions here is some background: The min pin came to us from my son when he and his wife had a premature baby 9 mos. ago. They are unable to take her back so now she's ours. We got the GS when she was 7 wks. because we wanted a larger dog for our 13 yo when we are away from the house. We immediately introduced both dogs and they have loved each other from day 1 (the min pin is 5 lbs. and the puppy is about 30). We made the huge mistake of letting the GS run loose when we first got her and are still having house breaking issues because of it. Once we realized that we started tying her to the door of the room we are in. We also have an outside cat that the puppy will pull like mad to get to and then lick on her like crazy. So here are my questions:
1. Is it possible to establish groundwork with both dogs at the same time? If so, do I approach the groundwork differently for each one and do I now keep them completely separate from each other?
2. Should there only be one member of the family doing the groundwork with the dogs or do we all do it? Can 1 family member do ground work with one dog and another one with the other dog? My daughter would like to do groundwork with the min pin and I would like to do it with the GS but we will do what is best.
3. Ed talks about no toys in the DVD during groundwork but I also get the impression with puppies that toys and treats are an integral part of their training. Do I use toys with the puppy but not the min pin? Or, do they both get toys and treats?
4. I have tried tethering the GS to my belt but she is too strong for me and I have already done one face plant on the floor. I have resorted to tying her to the door handle of whichever room I am in. Should I keep her in her crate exclusively until it has been established that I am her pack leader?
5. Do dogs see one person as the pack leader and all others as ranking below the leader or can they see two or more family members as pack leaders? How do we establish pack leadership and rank so the dogs will listen to and obey all family members?

Thanks so much for any help!
Rebecca

1) It's probably *easier* to do both dogs at once. Increasing the crate time as part of the groundwork will make it easier when you have the other dog tethered to you.

2) I wouldn't let a 13 year old be the primary person conducting groundwork. I would take the lead, and have your daughter assisting under your direction. Inconsistency in this stage could undermine the entire process.

3) You can use toys and treats to train, but ONLY for training. He's referring to the Nothing In Life is Free concept. Provided the dog is working for it, the dog can have a toy or treat as part of training. There's just no free play or random treats.

4) Consider adding a bungee to the leash for tethering.

5) When done correctly, the dog should see all human pack members as senior to it. Beyond that, it doesn't really matter if they see you as outranking your daughter, etc. They should just see all of you at outranking the dogs.

Also consider a prong collar, if the dog is yanking you around.

And you should be working on leash manners as part of your OB training.

 Quote: rebecca morrill

3. Ed talks about no toys in the DVD during groundwork but I also get the impression with puppies that toys and treats are an integral part of their training. Do I use toys with the puppy but not the min pin? Or, do they both get toys and treats?

 Quote: aaron myracle

3) You can use toys and treats to train, but ONLY for training. He's referring to the Nothing In Life is Free concept. Provided the dog is working for it, the dog can have a toy or treat as part of training. There's just no free play or random treats.

I apply the "Nothing is Free" concept all the time, but my pup has been biting on everything lately. To better redirect the biting I've been leaving some toys around so I don't have to get up and walk across the room to get a toy and walk back. I only plan on doing this until I see she recognizes her prey item, and have resorted to keeping her favorite toy/food for training.

Is this a good strategy?

IMO, toys which are left around become the dog's toys - not yours. Keep a tug/toy in YOUR pocket or on the counters to redirect biting, or put her in her crate with a kong/toy. If they are lying around - to her, they belong to her. They ARE free - no work needed on her part - only on your's to walk across the room.

I always have Zukes in my pocket and all over the house and didn't ever think to distract with a treat. I'll really have to pay attention to her food/treat ratio now.

Thanks so much for your input and suggestions. I'm definitely going to look into a prong collar and my husband has lots of bungee chords in the garage. I think we will also be getting an ex pen next week. I went back and watched the puppy 8 weeks to 8 months dvd and took lots of notes. I've implemented a lot of what is taught on there and am already seeing some big improvements. Thanks again for your help!
Rebecca

Look at the toys like a kid would look at a cookie jar with free access. In time the cookies loose their value because they are always there and always available. They should be something the dog earns.
Both dogs can start at ground zero. It just may take the older dog longer because of already established habits.
Both my daughters were in OB classes by the time they were 10-11 yrs old but that was after following me around to dog shows, competitions, etc. "IF" you daughter shows responsibility for the job then go for it! My only concern would be that you may not be qualified to see what and when she's doing something incorrectly. Each dog will have it's on set of training issues and everything may not apply to both
I'm not trying to drain your pockets but the Ellis DVDs are second to none. He's absolutely the best at explaining the why and how of what he's doing.
I trained my first dog 50+ yrs ago and still have some "HOLY $#!+" moments watching his stuff!
Old dogs CAN learn new tricks!

When I said walk across the room and get a toy I would walk because I keep her toys in a box on a shelf. In Ed's puppy video he says he brings out a box of toys for the puppy. I thought of implementing that same thing, but Jasmine's biting has stopped entirely and I'm extremely happy about it.