I have two GSD's now 2.5 yrs old - litter mates (bad idea, won't do that again). The female has a wonderful disposition but the male has gotten aggressive to the point that no one can come near him or in our home other than his 'family' & one person he saw regularly as a puppy. The dogs live with my husband & I, no kids & no traffic in our home as we have no local family. Obviously that has something to do with it. We did socialize them well as pups. Daily trips to the park to play with adults & kids.. trips to Pet Smart, long walks in crowded urban areas etc. He never acted shy or fearful and enjoyed the play time & attention. Over their first winter, 8-9 mos old now, we had a break from people. I was the only idiot out walking my dogs in 10 degree weather & no one wanted to visit since we live in the boonies & roads are bad. When spring broke & people started to emerge, that's when I noticed he'd changed. It started out where he barked at anyone new in our home & backed away. If they ignored him entirely, he'd warm up & become their new best friend once he realized he wasn't getting any attention. Stupidly, I thought that meant he'd just outgrow it.

As time passed he started lunging at strangers, dogs, cars, bikes when we walked. I've managed to get him past the lunging for the most part. I back him off the road a bit & have him sit until the someone/something has passed by, petting & praising him the whole time. This works well as long as it's not another dog. If the other dog barks or moves toward him, even 'friendly' he freaks out. If I correct with the pinch collar, he often gets worse & one time bit my pant leg in a display of displaced aggression.

In our home, he's wonderful, loving & a big mush. I find it hard to believe it's the same dog. After doing some research I see now that he does demonstrate signs of dominance as well, although the other behavior seems to be fear based (per several trainers I've consulted with). He often jumps when he wants something; wants to be the center of attention, especially when we display affection towards our other dogs. I can take his food & toys away no problem & he's not aggressive at all to my other pets (his sister, a senior rat terrier & two old cats). In fact, the small terrier is the boss.

I can have him around people on a leash and I do use a muzzle now in tight spaces where I can't control the surroundings. If we ease over to talk to a friend, he will lay down & stay. Typically he turns his back to them & acts indifferent. He doesn't appear nervous & even rolls over for a belly rub from me. If however, the person makes any sudden moves; waving their arms while talking or offering a hand to sniff, he gets up, barks & in position to lunge if they don't stop. He will also snap at their hand. Twice he attempted to bite someone as they walked away. This is what lead me to believe he has a fear based aggression.

So now my dilemma is I've had trainers tell me it's a lost cause while others say he can be 'fixed' (although never trustworthy to be left alone with anyone - I'd be fine with that). It's been suggested to me to use everything from a clicker to a shock collar; positive reinforcement only vs. hanging him with a choker & kicking his butt. The shock collar works great for getting him to listen & pay attention. I use it ONLY to reinforce the word "no" and for basic stuff like healing & coming when called. I'm afraid it might make him worse if I go further. The clicker I didn't get too far with because it didn't seem to me to be 'enough' under the circumstances. I haven't committed to anything yet as I don't want to make the problem worse but I don't want to keep experimenting either as something needs to get done. I've had GSD's my whole life but never had any with issues I wasn't able to correct easily.

Sorry for the whole long story but I'd really appreciate thoughts from others who know the breed & have first hand experience with this type of problem.

Thanks so much

Same male who was jumpy and reactive two years ago? And you were advised to use positive training, right? (I recalled the littermate situation.)

From two years ago:
"I would focus less on "socializing" this dog, and more on creating a strong pack structure and bond with this dog. ... I would also put an emphasis on happy, upbeat obedience training with him, away from any form of distraction at this point."

Aaron's advice then was as excellent as it would be today.

I would like to hear more detail about the e-collar and its use to reinforce "no." And how are you using it with this dog for heeling and the recall? This is important. There was a good reason for the advice you got, and we need to know exactly what has been happening.

If it sounds like an attack to you, it's not. I assume you got bad advice elsewhere and followed it. So please set personal feelings aside and we'll all focus on the dog and how to move forward.

How separated are the dogs? If the terrier is "the boss," I assume they all have free run of the house together?

"The clicker I didn't get too far with because it didn't seem to me to be 'enough' under the circumstances. "

The clicker (or verbal marker) is not an immediate tool for direct intervention in a reactive event. It would have been an excellent tool two years ago for confidence-building bulletproof basic ob. It will be excellent now for the same thing. More about it later.


"Typically he turns his back to them & acts indifferent." Indifferent? In what way are you seeing indifference? When he turns his back (in avoidance, I will assume for the moment), what's his demeanor?

"If however, the person makes any sudden moves; waving their arms while talking or offering a hand to sniff, he gets up, barks & in position to lunge if they don't stop." Please stop allowing this to happen to him.

And I would stop with the prong when he's reacting to dogs, and proactively keep him out of those situations.

If you would post back with the details, we can probably at least get you started toward the right kind of trainer and also help you manage the dog right now to minimize exposure to his triggers.

I'm glad you posted. I urge that you stick around and respond.

Hi Connie,

Thanks for responding & no worries that I'll be offended. I'm happy for any advice or criticism as long as it helps my dog & I move in a positive direction.

You are correct this is the same dog w/same problem. As I mentioned, I did work though some of his issues (ie. lunging) using positive reinforcement with some luck. Yes, I was told by a variety of trainers, vets & others that he needed to be put in his place & "broken" - that was a term I heard a lot. Essentially they told me to use shock collars, chokers, flipping him over on his back & sit on him.. whatever it takes to make him submit. The idea being he won't even dream of biting anyone because he'll get in trouble. If that doesn't work I was told I should put him down as he would get worse & worse as he matured. When I was a kid, that's how dogs were handled so I figured there was a valid point here. The problem was, I just could do it to him (& me). No matter how I sliced it, it seemed cruel and quite frankly it seemed to me he'd only surpress his fear/anguish & then just snap one day when I turned my back or he got so freaked out he didn't care.

As for the shock collar question, I do find it helps take him down a notch. He's very excitable & energetic and needs to be reminded who is in charge daily. When he's amped up & hasn't had his exercise the word "no" just doesn't always cut. Exercise is HUGE for him & if he doesn't get it, he's an ass. When we set out, for the first mile I have to constantly correct him for pulling. If I use the shock collar as an example; I say heel.. he does for a minute & then starts pulling. I then say "NO" then heal w/leash correction.. if that doesn't do it, the third time I give him a quick zap when I say "NO" followed by heal again. That usually does the trick & then I praise the heck out of him. We then get in our groove & he's less likely to react to a stimulus he doesn't like. I also find if I run with him, as opposed to walking, he doesn't focus on stimulus at all unless it gets very close. Fortunately I'm a runner & I've got him up to 3 miles now. I also treadmill trained him so he can get a work out when we can't get out.

I prefer the idea of positive reinforcement but I haven't been able to find a trainer that deals with it for aggression. I took him to an agility trainer a few times & we did clicker/hot dog to 'shape behavior' as she called it. He really loved the games & did very very well but since it didn't address the aggression & I have a budget, I put it on the back burner. Other positive reinforcement techniques I was recommended required treats which he doesn't care about too much. He's not very food driven so that makes it difficult.

As for the three dogs; yes they all live together loose in the house. I separate them to eat & sleep (at night only). The GSD's are crated, the little guy is not. He was old when I got him & was never crate trained. He got on just fine with my then senior GSD who no longer required a crate so I didn't bother. There are no food aggression problems, only different dietary needs which is why I split them up to eat. Cappy is poor eater while Magic (his sister) & Pete (terrier) are pigs & will finish Cappy's meal. They all get along just fine except for the occasional mishap where someone steps on Pete & he retaliates by chasing them around the yard a few laps for good measure. Then they are all friends again.

As for avoiding other dogs, I've pretty much learned where the 'invisible fence dogs (most run thru it) live in my neighborhood & stay clear. I also walk as far off the road as possible if I see a dog heading in our direction and can't avoid it. Unfortunately, there are so many dogs in my neighborhood, most very poorly trained (my dog looks like a Ceasar Milan graduate compared to most) so I can't be certain to avoid them while getting out of the neighborhood for a long walk.

Same for people.. I don't let anyone offer a hand and i ask my friends not to make any sudden moves when we practice being near people. Once in a while, they forget but I've narrowed it down to the few who understand the issue, at least a little so they are careful.

I hope I answered your questions & gave you some more insight.

Thanks for your help!

Hi Ann. I don't have anywhere near enough experience to offer advice on behavior modification for your dog, so I will leave the training part of it to people with a lot of experience like Aaron and Connie.

However, I have had more than one dog that has been on the sharp side. I noticed that you mentioned that lack of exercise makes the problems worse.

One thing that I have found helpful in management for this kind of thing is keeping a really super regimented exercise schedule. Dogs that tend toward being sharp or fearful do best when they know what to expect day in and day out.

Releasing pent up energy is vital to any dog, but for a dog with behavioral problems it is even more importnant. Without it a dog like this will become almost schizophrenic.

So try your best to build an effective, predictable exercise routine into your life with him. There can certainly be days where you have more time and do extra stuff with the dogs, but try your best to make the exercise a complete ritual for this one in particular.

I'm sure this sounds redundant and silly and all dog whisperer. But it really helps if you can pull together the same two or three hours every day for exercise.

Even more Cesar Millan, but starting the day with a long, fast paced, structured walk really helps. It sounds cliche at this point, but I have found it to be absolutely helpful.

Good luck with your dog. I'm sure you will find a lot of help here on this forum.

I second the fast, structured walk first thing in the day. I had trouble getting Jethro to learn to walk on a loose leash. I started luring him to me with treats and clicks. I also lured him to walk beside me by popping treats in his mouth and clicking as we walked. We've gotten pretty adept at 'treat transfer' while on the move. He is now in the habit of offering me eye contact and moving in close to me as we walk. For heel, I simply shorten the leash. That seems to be Jethro's signal to make eye contact with me as we move forward.

Also, at the beginning of the walk, Jethro is excited and needs a bit of time to get in synch with me. I don't correct him for that, because he needs a moment to settle in.

I'm not an experienced handler, and everything I am doing, it is my first time. We adopted Jethro last June at the age of four months. We are now getting to the stage where he will break off barking and lunging voluntarily by voice command. It has been a long, sometimes exquisitely frustrating journey, but, WOW. The feeling when he spies a cat, is slipping into fixation, getting ready to charge, and "Jethro! This Way!" he turns back to see what I have to offer.

You will get great advice from the experienced handlers and trainers on this forum. I encourage patience, and trust the process. There is no quick fix.

Hi Ann.

The dog you’re describing is very much the way my Shepherd came to me. His background was different in what he was subjected to for the first 10 months of his life but the previous owner also described harsh methods in an attempt to control/break him.

IMO this is the worst thing you can do with these dogs. They’re sharp but they’re also very willful in body and mind. When owners get frustrated with this sharpness (lack of attention, displays of aggression, your words “being an ass&rdquo, the first place they go is to dominate the dog – generally through the harsh corrections that you mention (alpha rolls, inappropriately used prong and e-collars, flipping and sitting on him, etc).

The dog is sharp and simply doing (alerting) to what comes natural. Sharp is often used in an extremely negative context and I agree, that for certain types of work, favorable breed characteristics and families looking for that social, calm, predictable pet, it’s not at all a favorable trait. But because I’ve always had at least one sharp member in my pack, it’s kind of way of life with me and I really don’t mind a dog with an extreme edge. Huge management issues but fair and consistent training can go a long way.

The worst thing you can do is create superstitious behaviors. The way you’ve used the e-collar and other methods you describe, has him not knowing when the hammer may come down.

He doesn’t know he’s being an ass. Correcting him in this manner is just adding pain to negative energy he’s feeding off from you and creating a really ugly situation. He has no idea he created it, he’s simply reacting to it, therefore, nothing to correct in his mind. In fact, as he matures, he will simply learn to anticipate it at the most inopportune times and fight back even harder.

Watch your state of mind because he certainly is. When he feels that frustration, he’ll learn to act quicker than you, even though it may be for something totally unrelated. Superstitious behavior – bad thing to create.

Watch him closely. What sets him off? Guests leaving for example. You know this happens. Make a plan over the phone with this guest – let him/her know visit as usual but when they go to leave have Cappy on a leash, flat collar (if you can control him) and his favorite toy. As he alerts to the guest getting up (the instant he alerts before he escalates) get up with him and start a play session. Have the guest sit down again and repeat.

You want to teach an alternate behavior to what he’s learnt to do (growling, barking, lunging). He knows no different right now. Show him what’s expected. He sees something, his attention should go to you to check it out, not be responsible to “take care of it”.

Of course this all starts with trust. I’m not sure how frequently or what methods you’ve been using to correct him but I would set him up for nothing but success over the next few months (well forever actually) but he must truly understand and be proofed on what you’re asking for before a correction ever comes down on him. This will start to build that trust.

If you don’t trust him around people right now, crate him before they get there. Carefully watch for his alert triggers and change his state of mind immediately with high reward distractions while teaching an alternate behavior.

These guys can learn to be predictable, even if it’s an unwanted predictableness. But it’s more about us understanding what their triggers are. And often it can be us setting them off – I’ve found they have an extremely sensitive connection to us.

With your experiences with him in the back of your mind it’s also really important for you too, to train yourself into a different thought process. A bunch of simple, easy to understand, successes with him/you as a team will start to build confidence in both of you and the trust will start to surface.

Not sure if that helps at all but I wish you the best of luck with him. These can be really great dogs, they just keep us on our toes a little more than the others.

Big ditto.

You've received a lot of good stuff already (and some very bad advice elsewhere, unfortunately, IMO).

I just lost a whole long post and I have to leave for a while (weekends on a dog board are sporadic with training, etc.), so I'll briefly ask one of the questions I had in it: How was the hot dog game successful but food rewards in general not? (Not sarcasm; I see marker work in your future and would like to explore that.)

I'd stop using the e-collar, period; I think you're exacerbating rather than solving issues. (Please avoid the term "shock" collar. )

I can see that you already sense what is needed (exercise, management, bulletproof ob, and the dog's perception of you as his never-fail leader and protector). You can get there. It's a process and there will always be management, but it can be a life of increased confidence and decreased reactivity for the dog (and you).

Connie... thanks again.. regarding the hot dog game, he's only interested if he's doing something fun for him. Example; agility type games where I click/treat to get him to go over a jump or run around a cone. He often doesn't eat the treats after the first few but at least he's still eager to win them (he spits them out) if he's having fun.

If I try to use a food treat to convince him to do something he doesn't feel like doing - example; heel or come when he's being stubborn, he could care less. Also if he fixates on something scary or when he wants to go for a walk, (he gets every leash in the house & drags them to the front door where he then sits), no treat in the world is going to distract him.

Maybe I'm not using them correctly but he's not a great eater to begin with.

Ann

 Quote: ann mcerlean

Connie... thanks again.. regarding the hot dog game, he's only interested if he's doing something fun for him. Example; agility type games where I click/treat to get him to go over a jump or run around a cone. He often doesn't eat the treats after the first few but at least he's still eager to win them (he spits them out) if he's having fun.

If I try to use a food treat to convince him to do something he doesn't feel like doing - example; heel or come when he's being stubborn, he could care less. Also if he fixates on something scary or when he wants to go for a walk, (he gets every leash in the house & drags them to the front door where he then sits), no treat in the world is going to distract him.

Maybe I'm not using them correctly but he's not a great eater to begin with.

Ann

Dogs and "stubbornness" ..... this term translates into "training error."

Have you seen anyone marker training? I don't want to re-type the marker system, and I do get the feeling that it's not really familiar to you. I know it's question after question (sorry) .... each answer makes me think of a gap between what I'm saying and what I think you're hearing. Probably me! It would be great if you'd let me know: Have you seen any video (tons of free stuff here!) or read anything about marker training? Totally aside from the agility-hot dog sessions.

For example, this: "If I try to use a food treat to convince him to do something he doesn't feel like doing - example; heel or come when he's being stubborn, he could care less."

Nothing to do with marker training. Again, the food reward is not a direct tool for intervening in an immediate situation. It's part of a training system.

" no treat in the world is going to distract him"

Also nothing to do with marker training. The reward is a reward. You're thinking of it in an entirely different context.

And honestly, a less food-driven dog can definitely be worked with every bit as successfully.

So .... seen any of the free Michael Ellis video on LB? Have you read the eBook? What can I link you to?

I want to get away from your idea of a bit of food as a lure away from a reactivity event or a bribe to distract the dog.

Watch this when you have a chance and then ask us questions:
http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php?id=124

And check out this buffet of incredible material!

http://leerburg.com/flix/category.php?categoryid=30
http://leerburg.com/flix/searchResults.php?searchfor=ellis