I haven't seen any posts about this particular thing, nor have I figured out how to use a particular insight I've gained about my zest-for-life, brilliant, reactive, problem child--Thor, an adopted Dutch shepherd.

As I began listing some background information (other than the introduction post made some time ago) and the progress since his adoption 1 1/2 years ago, it got a little lengthy...so please ask questions (as I know you all do).

A while ago, I finally came to wonder if Thor's animal aggression was further pushed by the prong--for whatever reason--pain and/or past association with how his animal aggression was previously handled, which was yanked on a choke-chain which caused further stimulation and where he re-directed.

So, I tested him on both prong and flat-collar. He handled differently on flat collar. He didn't re-direct. He still had a low threshold, but it was bit higher and he listened better and would (could?) actually obey with some focus--not absent-mindedly--but there was no consistency. (His threshold was being pushed; this was more of a determination of how he reacted on prong versus flat than trying to build up an already low threshold--an assessment, if you will.)

The next thing I did, with the use of diffent battery-operated "animals" (one that make noise, too) at a distance far enough that he couldn't know they weren't real, I tested him on flat collar and off-lead completely.

He was a different dog on another level off-lead. He still wanted to "go" and still wanted to "kill," yet he was able to listen and follow through (with trouble sometimes doing so) and his threshold was the highest I've ever seen it--though not spectacular.


I moved one "decoy" within close attack range with him off-lead. Not perfect, but his impulse control and threshold was still better, yet I could see him truly struggling to maintain at times. His command-response ration was the best ever in this situation.

All this said, Thor and I work on obedience every day (old stuff and connecting-the-dots kind of OB) and he's become pretty remarkable. He learns new tasks first or second time with enthusiasm. And this guy has to WORK for everything--and he does so.

He also makes associations--bad or good-just as quickly as he learns a new task; as such, my belief is an e-collar
or dominant dog collar would do more harm than good based upon his reactions on prong, on flat and off-lead.


Now--I can't test him off-lead with live subjects...so how would any of you move forward with this information? After thinking about it, my thoughts lie toward combining off-lead with dummy subjects. then on flat collar with dummies, and then possibably on-prong with dummies. A reverse situation in regard to training collars.


I don't know that he'll ever be trustworthy, but I do work toward that goal even though it may never happen. He grew up with GSD, but at seven months (according to his previous owner), his animal aggression kicked in. As previously stated, the treatment was yanked on choke in another direction.

I know who the breeder was, but have no further information. I don't know how much genetics versus learned behavior I'm working with, but I do know that this guy has A LOT MORE potential--he's shown it, over and over. It just may be that he will never be reliable around animals (he also has territorial and protection aggression and not good at the vets, but as we've made progress there, too).

He's a tough dog with a funny (as in he has a sense of humor) personality. He loves life and has a fascinating mind.

I would think that the route your going sounds right, based on what you have said. Prong collars in general put drive into a dog, no matter how you use them. I would keep prong collars out of the equation. A dominant dog collar has the opposite effect, and may be worth reconsidering. I'm sure you know, but what he needs to work on is focus on you. When he starts to refocus on his decoy target is when things go down hill. I wouldn't exclusively utilize training time on desensitizing either, he needs work to do. Tracking would be benefitial for him, giving him the mental and physical stimulation. JMO.

One tool that I have used is the dog park...

Now don;t get me wrong. I am NOT suggesting that you take him there and let him run with the other dogs... But usually there is an area surrounding the park that you can hang around and use for training purposes and the other dogs are all fenced in.

I start as far away as needed to keep the dogs attention on me and the other dogs are barely even a distraction. By using the fenced in and permanent dog park, I can move closer and back up as needed for my dog on that day. Some days are better than others... My eventual goal is to be able to work within feet of the fence with a barking dog on the other side with my dogs full attention on me. I was able to achieve that and more!

Now I know you said he is better off leash, but I would not be doing this (or any thing really unless in a fully enclosed space where there is zero danger) with out at least a long line on him. Clix makes a super light weight line that feels good in the hand. My boys barely noticed it and I was able to do a lot more "off leash" training before I trusted them.

If your dog works better in a flat collar, then use that. I would also try to get some exercise in prior to working on the desensitization stuff. Having built up restless energy makes it harder for a dog to concentrate and easier to react.

Thanks, Ben. I kind of thought so on the prong, too...I'll give more thought to the nature of the dominant collar on him.

I did tracking with him a couple times--and he was AMAZING; I haven't gotten even comparable to ScH-type tracking, though. He has a good nose and enjoys it. He also does object or food searches several times a day--LOVES that. We also do a lot of trick training, doing old routines and learning new ones. Plus we do focus work each day. In general, he has to have his eyes locked on me for anything to happen (a ball toss, go outside, breath!, etc.)

Good reminder, too, about desensitizing versus focus. I think that I tend to lose my focus on focusing if he's in a highly aggitated state; I'd say I also have to be more mindful of his thresholds and stop before he blows (making that session successful), ultimately to increase his threshold while improving his focus.

Hey, Jessica....(You were posting as I was typing.)

I'm a big fan of different parking lots, myself. Always used to take new adopts to them to assess how different sights, sounds and smells effect them, then keep using them as proofing grounds once training got underway.

I'd love to do that with Thor (or dog parks, as you do), but this guy can have a switch that gets turned on--and when that happens, it's like trying to reel in Moby Dick. (He's a big boy, lots of muscle.)

I think if I can get him consistently on a certain level of reliability, then I could proof that level outside what is now a controlled environment for him. Does that make sense or am I off the path here?

Also, thanks for the Clix information. The leads I have can do a number on my hands if that switch gets turned on and he blows.

Your post is so timely for me and Jethro! I just took him out for his first walk on a flat collar only because I was starting to suspect the prong was increasing his arousal, even though it seemed to give me more control to pull him off target.

I'm on an island now, and have no fenced areas to work in. And lots of distractions (visual, scents) to train around. I was pretty much exhausted after the first week, because I realized how much I was relying on physically controlling Jethro rather than working to engage cooperation and being more assertive with him.

Luckily, it turns out there is a trainer right next door, semi-retired, who is helping me re-train my handling skills (books and videos just aren't enough to avoid the usual pitfalls).

Anyway, I am tired of the prong, and I'm not sure it is helping. So I'm going to keep working on these other fronts and see how we do.

If he's not aggressive without the leash on then it's most likely a fight or flight reaction to dogs. On leash he's got nowhere to run to so it's probably a fight situation in his mind.

Even just looking at Jethro, he cracks me up (but I do feel your pain). Would be interested in the suggestions the trainer makes as well as Jethro's response.

A few months before I got Thor, he was filmed for an Animal Planet show (they changed the focus of the program, so he got cut). The producer took his lead and Thor started blazing the guy's trail in hot pursuit of other animals. As Thor's handler tried to get the lead, the guy was saying that Thor just wanted to make new friends; the handler said--no, he doesn't--he wants to kill them....

He's not as aggressive around decoys off-lead, just he handles differently (and so far, has never re-directed on flat or off-lead).

He's a very, very confident boy. Has no fear. But something in the back of my mind keeps going back to his animal aggression being pumped up by previous handling techniques--like his behavior was reinforced by the very method of trying to control him. If that's the case, logically, I should be able to counter-condition.

In certain situations that produce a reactive state, it's clear that he's learned it's unacceptable as he will catch himself and stop and either look at me or look for me (sometimes he goes into an immediate down without being told--and looks for affirmation, or heels without being told...but sometimes he just, just, just can't help himself and although he starts to do the right thing, he gives in to impulse...and then I religiously step in.

When I first got him, even the scent or sound of another animal would cause his pupils to fully dialate (in full sunlight) and any method to attempt to handle him resulted in a reflex in drive. He was completely unaware, the switch was on. (Good times...good times.)

I have the most delightful "Thor Kills A Skunk" story (if any story involving a skunk can be delightful), but I'll save that for another time.

Thanks so very much for the input. I appreciate it very much.