One of the main differences between Ryuk and Gambit training wise is that Gambit has NO sense of vocabulary....none. With Ryuk if you use one of his commands passively he'll do it, he recognizes (WAY TO MANY > ) "normal" words used in conversation, he picks up tone of voice and responds accordingly.

Gambit needs to be given direct commands, he recognizes tone but only to tell the difference between "stern" and "obnoxious baby talk" (he will also melt into a puddle I yell, though I've never actually yelled at him....we have very annoying cats). I'd like Gambit to figure out some vocabulary, so I can ask him if he actually needs to go outside or if he just wants to play out there (something I clearly take for granted with Ryuk who's usually pretty honest about such things, we have a ) or if he's being a brat because he's hungry or thirsty or if he honestly just needs to blow off some steam.....

With Ryuk he gained his ability to understand by observation and consistency. I would ask him if he was hungry before meals and he learned pretty quickly how to respond if he wanted food. On the road now if he starts to get restless I can ask him "are you hungry" and if he is he'll respond, if not I'll go down the list "need water?" "have to go out" and he responds accordingly and consistantly. At this point if he asks to go out I really can ask him if he needs to go to the bathroom or if he just wants to goof around outside, and most of the time if he's "honest" about wanting to run around in the yard I'll let him out as a reward. Gambit is very attentive, I think he's got the observation in there somewhere, but simple terms fly right over his head. I've been providing the consistency but somewhere they're not connecting. I don't expect Ryuk's rather disturbing level of understanding when it comes to conversational English but I thought he'd at least pick up some new words by now other than "GamGam" which is what I've been calling him (think BamBam from flintstones, he's a walking, no sorry RUNNING, wrecking ball) He's been here for long enough now to know what "outside" means, he hasn't picked up "food" either (water doesn't apply as he's always got it), he doesn't even get "treat".

I've noticed this in training as well. I'm trying to break down a wall with him. His OB with marker training is solid at this point and I've moved on to fun stupid tricks to encourage some creativity. I've worked with dogs with no creativity, once you break that wall it's great. Gambit's wall isn't a lack of creativity it's a reluctance to do anything without being physically put into the position, he's afraid he'll be "wrong" and unlike the uncreative dog he doesn't get frustrated or shut down in the traditional sense, he waits until you physically move him and "pose" him into what you'd like him to do. Since I refuse to correct a dog into a position who doesn't know what I want and he's still iffy on full body contact this is a problem. For example, I'm trying to teach "sit pretty" because it encourages balance and makes even the "scariest" looking dog look harmless. When I taught Ryuk I lured him into position a few times and marked it, he as trying on his own around the fifth time and perfected it a day or two later (with the balance and the tucked paws). When my housemate taught her, at the time VERY uncreative, pit mix Rico we had to break through the constant shutting down and frustration but even he "got it" via luring and marking. Gambit needs to be physcially moved into a position yet is rather intolerant of being physically moved by anything other than a leash. I managed to mark "sit pretty" having put him hand on his chest and sat him up in the position which did make something "click" but I've noticed this in almost every command. When I first started doing some heelwork with markers I'd ask him to "fuss" and he'd jump nine miles in the air and "overjump" into heel position (actually rather impressive...but totally NOT what I asked for). So I started making it impossible for him to do that by moving up against the wall and trying to guide him into position....if you tried to touch him in heel position he'd jump out of your reach. So I worked on contact with him while in heel position (reaching down to pet him), once he was okay with that I managed once to guide him in one smooth movement into heel position once and that's all it took, he's spot on now. All I need is that ONE physical guide into position but that seems odd, is there a way to encourage that without that first initional physical manipulation. I don't care if he tries it a hundred different ways I just want him to try without having to be touched....for him it's not a lack of creativity, it seems to be a reluctance to believe there is no wrong answer...

Blerg, sorry this go so long, you deserve a cookie if you actually read it all....

So, any ideas?

What I would do to encourage creativity is to quit any sort of formal style training and work on freeshaping with a clicker for a few weeks. Look for random dog initiated things to mark/reward.

Have you heard of the idea of "101 things to do with a box"? Basicaly take a cardboard box and mark/reward any sort of interaction with it - whatever the dog may try with it is rewarded. If you don't think he'll interact with the box on his own, rub something yummy smeeling on it to peak his curiosity in it. Anything he tries with the box is "right" and highly reward him for any sort of initiative. As he learns this it should help to foster a bit of creativity and a desire to try something/figure something out.

Keep in mind that some dogs are very literal/reactive and some a very creative/intuitive/active by nature. And previous experinces can enhance or dampen creativity.

Missy picked up an EVERYTHING. Family names, animal names, places, everyday words. And she did so with relative ease.

Kipp has picked up on many things, but still likes to be told what to do. He likes to learn and is responsive to a variety of words/phrases, but he doesn't try and figure things out on the same intuitive human like level as Missy did.

Kenzi seems to be halfway inbetween.

Dexter is kind of like Gambit. But he will let me place him. He can do one thing in different ways. He can get on the ladder then he figured out what I wanted at the stepstool.

I tryed to get him to do stuff with a box. I sat there for 1 hr before he just nosed it. That got rewarded, now try an other thing. Nope.

Dexter still need guidence to figure things out. Harley look like a genius compare to Dexter.

Dexter is great to work on my patience and creativity

I've tried the box game but I don't think Gambit is "ready" for it yet....he tapped the box once, which I marked....

then stared intently at me for 45 minutes (even with my desperate attempts to interest him in the box) until he started shaking and trembling on the spot waiting for me to tell him something....when I finally surrendered and did some fun commands with him he was explosive for the next hour whenever I got up or tried to pet him...

I've been doing some nose games with him which are relaxing him a little to the "think outside the box" think but this dog is just SO reliant and being physically moved into things that I don't think he's ready to try freeshaping yet...he's getting better by the day, but not yet...

I have tried to catch him in the act while he's playing though since when he thinks so one is looking he will play with plush toys like he's never seen them before. I've been trying to introduce plushies as a way to introduce freeshaping and fun activities but it's been sooooo slow...

What about using treat toys? (buster cube, twist n' treat, etc)

Also what type of rewards are you using for creativity? With the box at this point I'd reward with a handful of something *really yummy* then put it up and bring it out again later.

Like any sort of drive building - quit while the dog is interested! If you can just get a passing glance at this point, highly reward it then stop!

Jamie, you are an awesome dog wrangler and I barely dare to post this, but I would remember that Gambit is going through a major cognitive and emotional adjustment, just transitioning from the home he was in, to your home. I think it is safe to say that he is, "burning the little grey cells" at both ends everyday, working to figure out where he fits and what is expected of him. It might be that his creative juices are being well spent on this activity, and given a little more time, he will be able to free up his resources for other, more advanced pursuits. Or not : ).

There was a little section in the Marker DVD where I try to train my coworker Joanne to do something using a clicker. She had no idea what I wanted and it was difficult to do because she would just stand there and look at me. Ed's commentary- if I remember correctly- equated Joanne's reluctance to TRY things to a dog previously trained in compulsion that is AFRAID to TRY new things. I don't know what Gambit's previous training was- I know that Nick isn't a very reliable source as far as that goes, and the dog was sent out to a trainer for a few weeks so who knows what the heck he was exposed to there.

He is not Ryuk. He is Gambit. It's frustrating to work with a dog that's not as quick to learn as your other dogs. But you work with the dog you have. I am struggling now with Tyra- she's nowhere NEAR the level Toni or Cat or Drift are- she's a lumbering oaf compared to them. But I have to cater my training to the dog that I am working with. I have to break things into itty bitty baby steps for her and it takes FOREVER to teach the smallest thing. I don't always have the patience for it and have to stop before I get too frustrated and she reads it.

Don't get too frustrated- you are trying to over come a LOT with this dog. He's going to be a challenge until he figures out that YOU are what is consistent in his life, and YOU will not change your rules on him in the middle of the game.

 Quote: Kelly

. He is not Ryuk. He is Gambit. It's frustrating to work with a dog that's not as quick to learn as your other dogs. But you work with the dog you have. I am struggling now with Tyra- she's nowhere NEAR the level Toni or Cat or Drift are- she's a lumbering oaf compared to them. But I have to cater my training to the dog that I am working with. I have to break things into itty bitty baby steps for her and it takes FOREVER to teach the smallest thing. I don't always have the patience for it and have to stop before I get too frustrated and she reads it.

Where's the "like" button?!

I started out the the canine equivilant of Lassie. Missy learned things in 3 repeats, picked up an extensive vocabulary, lived to please and always tried figure out what I wanted. She made me look like a training genius and we were partners from the get go.

Then I got Kipp. Very intelligent in his own way, but much more of a, umm, dog. Smart, driven, ADD and in it for himself. After 3 weeks I was thinking "what did I get myself into?!?" It took almost 2 years before I felt we were really clicking together as a team. He's my buddy now and wants to figure out what I want and to please but it was a journey to get to that point.

 Quote: Kelly

,,, Don't get too frustrated- you are trying to over come a LOT with this dog. He's going to be a challenge until he figures out that YOU are what is consistent in his life, and YOU will not change your rules on him in the middle of the game.

Also, months and years and decades down the road you are going to look back with gratitude for the challenge of different levels of quickness and IQ. Which dog(s) do you learn most from? Which dogs hone your "chaining" (breaking commands into the smallest links possible)? Which ones perfect your consistency?

Guess.

Well, shoot. I just composed a very long and studied reply that I thought would make a lot of sense, I hit some key accidentally, and it disappeared.

Anyway, I'll ditto Mara, Jenny, Kelly and Connie and just say I think a month or so is a very short time for you to have had Gambit, and I believe, with the passage of a few more months, you will start to see amazing changes in him.