Your site is a wonderful resource that I've been reading through for weeks--thanks for all the work your team does. And now let me apologize for how long and complex I'm going to make this post!

First, let me start by introducing the wonderful Max, a pure bred Border Collie rescue, 5 years old, who I've had for four years.



I'm 23 years old, and until recently, was living with my parents on 250 acres of fields and forests in Rhode Island--true heaven for a BC. I got Max as a (somewhat) abused rescue at age 1, love at first sight.

Four years ago, I went through some basic obedience classes with him when I first got him, but soon enough he was learning stuff on his own (how do they do that?) I could tell him to wait on the stairs, and he would (never taught him that.) I could tell him it was time for bed, and he would go upstairs and lay down on his doggie bed. He even taught himself the difference between a ball, a frisbee and a toy. All on his own.

Because of how good natured he was, and focused on pleasing the humans around him, I never felt the need to establish any kind of pack structure with him--he came when I called, he didn't need to be leashed outside, and he was (and still is) a joy to be around.

Little did I know what a disservice I was doing to him.

Fast forward a few years. I met a girl, and I swear to God that she and my dog fell in love harder and faster than she and I ever will. Max has heart shaped eyes just for her. We decided to move in together after a year of dating, and both just being out of school, found it convenient to move into her parents finished basement in New Haven, CT.

That's when everything just fell apart.

Her mom has an 8 year old female GSD who similarly only went to basic obedience class. She can be very aloof. She's the exact opposite of Max--doesn't like commands very much, is low energy, and doesn't enjoy the attention of people anywhere near the amount that Max (BC) does. She keeps to herself.

When we introduced the two dogs, I tried to insist that we take them to a neutral area to discover each other, but everyone insisted I was being too protective--they had raised dogs for their whole lives, and said we shouldn't even leash the dogs because they would feel trapped. This sounded wrong to me, but, the older and wiser insisted, so I allowed myself to be overruled. I wish now that I'd been a bit of an asshole and put my foot down.

The instant I let Max (BC) into Bella's (GSD) back yard, he ran circles around her. She seemed okay with it. Then Max (BC) put his head high, his tail went up, and, (without bearing teeth) Max (BC) started to growl very low, and very quietly, right next to Bella (GSD). She wasn't having any of it, and instantly bit him above the neck, right behind the ears and wouldn't let go.

Of course, all hell broke loose, with all owners flailing their arms and yelling and stomping (I realize now after reading your literature, that this was a terrible thing to do--just ignorance on my part.) We eventually separated the GSD from Max but it continued to happen again and again and we had to separate them.

The girlfriends mom insisted we keep trying to introduce them, and I relented a couple times on her word that she had spoken to other trainers who said you just need to let them work it out.

It just got worse. It got to the point where the GSD wouldn't let go. We had to literally pull her off of Max. It saddens me that it took me that long, but I finally put my foot down and said enough, this is bullshit. I was traumatized more than I can put in words to see what was happening to my already emotionally fragile BC--and worse, that I had let it happen. Thankfully, the GSD's teeth were worn down so far that she never punctured Max's (BC) skin.

Fast forward to present time. We're still living in the same house (it's been 4-5 months). The dogs were completely separated on my orders until I could figure out what direction I wanted to take.

That's when I found your site.

I am now fairly certain of everything I was doing wrong. My question to you is, now that I realize what an ignorant owner I was, how can I do better?

I have read your literature on establishing a Pack. I like this very much. One of my most important questions is, what can I do differently from this literature since he's not a new dog? He's used to lots of bad habits. How can I avoid confusing him while trying to establish a new routine?

Then there are complications. Training the GSD is out of the question. The owner has anthropomorphised the dog completely. She feels like any kind of structure prevents the dog from being a dog and will negatively affect it's happiness (though you and I know better--dogs are dogs, not people, and crave structure.)

Here is what I have done so far:

• The dogs are never outside together
  
• The dogs never play with toys while in each others presence
  
• The dogs are never left alone in the house together

I have also established myself as above Bella (GSD) in the pack, and every time I enter a room, she greets me with ears back and nods her head downward to me in respect. I have done this just by having a calm, dominant attitude towards her, with very low, firm commands.

The dogs now tolerate each other in the house. It's amazing the difference you can make just by changing your attitude. When it's just me and them in the house, they don't dare to come up with any mischief. I am always calm and direct, even if I see them potentially getting nosey with each other.

However, when any of the women in the house come around, Max (BC) instantly becomes incredibly protective of them, and will growl at Bella (GSD) and put himself between the GSD and the human. Thankfully Bella has learned that I do not tolerate fighting and so, for about 4 months, has never lashed out at Max (BC).

However, I'd like to get to a point where Max doesn't feel like he has to growl at Bella. She is aloof until he growls, and although he has never bared teeth, can provoke her into striking, even though she's just minding her own business.

Some other miscellaneous problems are occurring as well... Max (BC) never had any house training issues, but now about once a week he either poops or pees in the kitchen, even if he's been out all day and has had lots of brain stimulation. He's clearly upset about something, and I figure it's the other dog and the new environment, but I just don't know.

Is there anything my girlfriend and I can do with Max to calm him down with other dogs? He now does this with every dog that's the same size or larger than he is, which leads me to think fear aggression? He never did it before meeting Bella.

Will it ever be possible to see these two dogs, who are sweet and lovely on their own, be able to play together in the back yard?

Sorry for writing so much, I got carried away. Thanks in advance for all your help!

Ian

Because the GSD's owner is NOT going to do anything with her...I would not allow the two together, its an accident waiting to happen...why put your dog through it?

Every time these dogs get into it and you break it up your building frustration that will only increase. Don't let it happen!
As the above poster said, they shouldn't be together if one of the principals (GSD's owner) isn't going to do anything constructive.

Why do you insist that these two dogs need to be best friends and play together? If your dog isn't acting like a lunatic and attempting to attack the GSD while you have him under voice or leash control, then leave it alone. Dogs do NOT need other dogs for friends. All the need is at least one human who can meet their needs.

If it were my BC I'd have enrolled him in obedience classes, rally-o classes, agility, something. They need a job, and being brought to live in a basement apartment after years on 250 acres is bound to be detrimental to his mental health. Sometimes you can wean dogs off of 'free roam' and sometimes it's just so ingrained in the dog that they never get over it.
And if it were my dog I'd simply keep him away from other dogs. He's obviously been traumatized by being attacked multiple times, so what's the point in forcing him into uncomfortable situations?

Thanks for the replies.

I realize that you all have recommended keeping them separate. I have done this for a few months now.

If I were to choose to try and work through this, rather than just saying they can never see each other, what's the best route I can go about it? Is there some article written here that you feel would apply to my situation?

Bella (GSD) is fine if left alone. Max (BC) has to get in her face before anything happens. Is there a way to help him with this? I have tried redirection for a while now, with food and toys, but anyone who's seen a BC's focus can understand when they're interested and there's not much you can do about it.

I don't want the dogs to be best friends. My goal would be just to have them tolerate each other, which I believe is possible, I just don't necessarily know the "right" direction.

I would enroll Max into some kind of obedience or agility class, but unfortunately ever since the encounter with Bella, has the same reaction to all dogs. I need to find a way to help him through it.

As well, he does get plenty of running, problem solving, agility and brain stimulus--he's not left to rot in a basement after years in the outdoors, we have about an acre of fenced in back yard area.

 Quote: Ian OBrien

Bella (GSD) is fine if left alone. Max (BC) has to get in her face before anything happens. Is there a way to help him with this? I have tried redirection for a while now, with food and toys, but anyone who's seen a BC's focus can understand when they're interested and there's not much you can do about it.

My dogs LISTEN to me when I speak- it's not an option to blow me off... whether they are focused on something else or not. This is a pack structure issue.

I would not attempt to get these two dogs together. If your dog won't do what you tell it to 100% of the time, you are setting up a dog fight.

PLUS you have the issue of the GSD's owner not willing to change things. Unless you plan to live in the basement until the GF's parents die and you inherit the house, I would just leave the dogs alone. When they need to be together, keep him tethered to you so that he CAN'T get in the GSD's face and start something.

If you make a mistake, it could cost your dog his life. Are you willing to take that chance??

 Quote: Ian OBrien

The girlfriends mom insisted we keep trying to introduce them, and I relented a couple times on her word that she had spoken to other trainers who said you just need to let them work it out. ... If I were to choose to try and work through this, rather than just saying they can never see each other, what's the best route I can go about it? Is there some article written here that you feel would apply to my situation? .... I would enroll Max into some kind of obedience or agility class, but unfortunately ever since the encounter with Bella, has the same reaction to all dogs. I need to find a way to help him through it. ...

IMO, these dogs cannot be together. You can work with your dog, and you should read up on desensitizing on this board (use the search terms desensitize and desensitizing up on the right there, in "advanced search," and expand the date range to three years or so), for your now-reactive dog. But this work will be for this: " unfortunately ever since the encounter with Bella, has the same reaction to all dog" .... not for the GSD he's been in the fights with.

Anyone who told the other owner to let the dogs work it out is completely and absolutely wrong. I don't know how to say it more strongly. Look what the results have been so far.

And the dynamic that has been allowed to develop is completely toxic. Every time what you describe has happened, both dogs have been affected. Look at the toll on your dog.

Bob said: "Every time these dogs get into it and you break it up your building frustration that will only increase. Don't let it happen! "

This is the kind of situation that ends up with a dead dog and injured humans who tried to break it up. I applaud you for coming here and laying it out and asking.

Thanks for your advice and helping me understand this situation a little better.

One final question!

I've read all the free literature on your site regarding Ground Work and Pack Structure, like the article here http://leerburg.com/groundwork.htm

I am going to implement this with Max. Is there anything I should do differently, because he is not new to me?

Also, how should the relationship be between my girlfriend and the dog?

I think it works the same, no matter how long. I say she should not treat him different than you do...enforce the same rules....but really, dogs should only have one boss but others in the pack can still handle him after you lay the rules and they follow what you did.

you can start the pack structure system even with dogs youve had for awhile. Ive done it before- it might seem cold to a human but dogs understand it and dont take it as an insult to be "demoted". I had to start over with one of my dogs from ground zero, no play no affection but the dog was getting what it Really needed- structure and boundaries,and was happier for it.