Lou,

I have heard you are the person to talk to regarding using an ecollar to curb aggression / prey drive toward people. My 2 year GSD is this way towards children (due to a bad experience with the neighbours kids tormenting her).

I have recently purchased a dogtra 1200NC ecollar and have been working with her obedience with it. (The results have been amazing). I have not started work with the agression issue yet as I am unsure how to go about it.

I have talked to one man who said I should set her (my dog) up so that children will be around. When she barks at them I shouldn't say anything - just hit her with the intensity at about 1/2. If she barks again he said to crank it to the top and hit her with it again.

What do you think of this approach?

Would your method to stop crittering work with children in the same way?

If anyone else has any input as well, I'd love to hear it.

Heather

I'm probably gonna get 'bashed' by other trainers for saying this but in good concience -I have to.

I would not recomend using an E-collar for child aggression.
Some dogs are very sensitive to it and act very strangely weeks or even months after the training has ended successfully. I really believe that down the road, some dogs would only remember that children = pain and behave even worse than before.
In my early years as a dog trainer I "healed" dog aggression in a very stable male GSD using an e-collar. The GSD was soon impeccable around other dogs (wouldn't even look at them but was not afraid) and impeccable in most every other respect too. 3 months after the e-collar he ran and attacked a young Rotweiller that was far away and just smelling a bush.
The attack (by this incredibly obedient GSD) was so quick, unprovoked and vicious that I could only blame it on "E-collar trauma". Can you imagine if the Rottie was a child?
I have since used other methods for dog-aggression with complete success.
I even cured the GSD who turned out to be an amazing dog that learned to PLAY with other adult males. Other methods can take awhile longer than the e-collar but they are rock-solid.

I have witnessed other mistakes (with e-collars)by other trainers but I don't want to bore you.
E-collars do wonders for some situations but not ALL situations and not ALL dogs.
We should not just try to take the easy way out -we may really screw up our dogs in the process.
Btw. Too many bad trainers screwing up dogs with e-collars has caused many countries (including Germany) to ban the use of e-collars for ANY purpose.

I often work on child-agression as a private trainer. I even have 3 children that I pay to help me in my work. They are 5, 6, and 8 and very "dog-wise" and immensely helpful.
I work the dog in obedience next to the children at first in a controlled environment, then get a friendship going with them in the dogs home and then go to parks and playgrounds and practice with the owner doing most of the handling.
I use a choke chain or prong -depending on the dog.

The sad thing is that for many dogs that have had a bad experience with a child at a very young age, there can never be a full recovery. They will never LIKE kids. Some dogs dislike children so much that they can only be tought to ignore them. They cannot be trusted off lead around them, ever. E-collar users would argue that with their method the dog learns to ignore children even if off lead and I would cheer right along with them if it wasn't for the aforementioned risk. The e-collar teaches some (smarter and tougher) dogs to just be faster and meaner when the time comes to attack. To get the bite in before that damn shock comes. They know the shock is comming but they grin and bear it because they GOT THAT KID GOOD! and the bite was worth the shock. Now the kid will "go away" and there will be NO MORE shocks. Needless to say the bite is ALWAYS worse after the shock training because the dog wants to get his "PAIN-worth".

Other, more sensitive dogs, could see a child and be 'reminded' of the shock and actually 'feel' it even though there is no shock! These dogs could freeze in terror or run away upon seeing a child.
And this too could occur like a fluke, months down the road, when you lest expect it. For the 'meanies' you could have them 'collared' for life but even then you must always be on the alert.
If you shock a dog WHILE its actually biting a child there is a 50-50 chance the dog will think the kids fighting back and bite HARDER. Am I scaring you? Good.
Cause I'm gonna get 'bashed' for this and I wanna get my 'Bashings-worth'.
In the end it is your choice. And I wouldn't be a bit surprised if you were successful in fixing the problem with the e-collar. I'm just saying I woulndn't risk it because there are better ways. Ways that don't have any side-effects.

Of course the best thing is to 'prevent' the problem before it happens. And it easy if you take children around puppies as seriously as you should.
I feel it is incredibly important for owners of new puppies to practically "live in fear" of children and to protect their pup from bad experiences that could literally ruin their future dog.

I have socialised many puppies about town and have stopped children from doing something nasty to a pup more times than I can remember.
It really helps to tell the annoying child this: (their parents aren't ever there for some odd reason!):
"Please don't scare my puppy! He's never met a child before and I would hate for him to think they are all mean like you!"

Good Luck in whatever you choose to do, I honestly only mean to help out.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Magic-Mt.
I "healed" dog aggression in a very stable male GSD using an e-collar. The GSD was soon impeccable around other dogs (wouldn't even look at them but was not afraid) and impeccable in most every other respect too. 3 months after the e-collar he ran and attacked a young Rotweiller that was far away and just smelling a bush.
The attack (by this incredibly obedient GSD) was so quick, unprovoked and vicious that I could only blame it on "E-collar trauma". Can you imagine if the Rottie was a child?

*** Are you kidding us...what are you talking about? Your dog who you claimed to be "obedient" did NOT listen to your commands, ran off and attacked another dog and it's a e-collar's fault? Did you have the collar on the dog at the time? If he was obedient and under control, why didn't he stop while on his way to the other dog? If he wasn't obedient, why was he off leash?

Much easier to blame a tool than YOURSELF.

I don't blame Ford, Chevy, Honda or any other car company when a drunk driver using that brand car harms or kills someone. I blame the drunk who was behind the wheel of the car. I'm NOT calling you a drunk, only that YOU are responsible for the dogs actions, not the e-collar!

Please don't fuel the crap myth that e-collars are the cause of these problems. If you had used a head halter or gentle leader and the dog did the same thing would you blame that as well. Oh wait, I know a clicker trained pure positive trained dog that once attacked another dog...man we should ban clickers..or better yet, liver treats he was rewarded with during training...give me a break!

Heather,
My main concern with this approach is that it may simply serve to eliminate your dog's warnings (the barking), resulting in a dog that bites with no warning at all.

Of course, this was addressed to Lou, and I'm not him (obviously).

You probably misunderstood me.
The action of the GSD was way, way, out of the ordinary.
I had personally worked him to the SCH-III title a few months earlier. He was THE prime example of obedience, before AND after this one fluke attack.
The dog was off lead (and off e-collar)because he had perfect obedience and had not shown any agression to a dog in over 3 months of working and playing around dogs. PLUS he was with his trainer who he lived to please (me).

Before the e-collar, when just plain dog aggressive, this dog had NEVER bitten another dog before NOR had he ever run off before.
So it was weird every way you look at it.
Sorry I didn't make that clear enough for you or the fact that I know of many other 'e-collar flukes'.
You should appreciate the guts someone has to admit their mistakes in public and respect them for it. Have you been infallible in your training of dogs???
You were really rude!
Of course I blame myself! For using the collar when I shouldn't have! NOT for using it inproperly. I felt so guilty for what happened to the Rottie that I did more research than anyone I know on the use of E-collars. I promise you, I used it properly. And I promise you, I have better ways to curb agression to dogs AND or kids.
If you could curb your own agression, I may teach them to you... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I've never had the opportunity to use the E-collar and haven't trained a dog to near the level many have here. I'm still new.

I can say though that doing electrical work since I was 16 in some form or other, and my whole family doing the occupation, that people are very mislead about electricity or electrical shock.

Small zaps are like any other form of pain or discomfort. It can't be so light, that someone flicking you on the ear can hurt more.

Sometimes with a stun gun (really small one) you can put it to your arm and you feel a tiny irritating sensation. It can feel the same if someone's getting a tattoo.

Unless someone put this thing on a HIGH level, I couldn't see it doing anything damaging than say a, pinch collar, etc. If you use it at the wrong time, then I'm sure it could damage a dog. You can damage a dog by using anything.

The only reason I wouldn't use one on a dog is because I've never used it. I wouldn't jump into anything in training unless someone showed me how to work it.

I've never trained dogs, but MOST people think of electric shock as something from a movie. That usually has something to do with seeing someone get the chair, or some Gestapo like torture device. Getting zapped by a tiny amount of electrical current is not like that.

From what I've heard the E-collar is just a tool that is used for precision and to speed up training. Although, if someone doesn't know what they're doing I could see the point that's often made.

Could it be when dogs are damaged or ruined, the trainer didn't know what how to use the E-collar properly?

Heather,
How aggressive is she when you walk her and she sees children?
If the main problem is her behavior on the property, you could try getting the kids that pass by to give her a sausage through the fence for a few days. Have you scolded her for this?
Scolded her BAD, like keeping a long line on her and snapping her back hard when she lunges for the kids? You really need to hurry up and work this out -I'd hate to think what might happen if she get's out of the yard one day.

Magic writes:He was THE prime example of obedience, before AND after this one fluke attack.
The dog was off lead (and off e-collar)because he had perfect obedience and had not shown any agression to a dog in over 3 months of working and playing around dogs. PLUS he was with his trainer who he lived to please (me).

Reply:Well I hope this is not your "prime example" of "perfect" obedience. How can a dog who doesn't recall, or call-off be "THE prime example" of "perfect" obedience. Perhaps if the
dog still had his e-collar on, you might have had a second re-enforceable recall.

Magic writes:You should appreciate the guts someone has to admit their mistakes in public and respect them for it. Have you been infallible in your training of dogs???
You were really rude!

Reply: Never said I was perfect, nor my dogs...unlike your post... In fact by your own post you blamed it on "e-collar trauma", not on you. I was only attacking YOUR STATEMENT that it was the "e-collar trauma" that caused the incident. It was your lack of handling and supervision that caused it, not the e-collar. If you find it rude that someone calls you on it, you've come to the wrong web board.

Magic writes: Of course I blame myself! For using the collar when I shouldn't have! NOT for using it inproperly.

Reply: So what was wrong with using the collar?

Magic writes:I did more research than anyone I know on the use of E-collars. I promise you, I used it properly. And I promise you, I have better ways to curb agression to dogs AND or kids.

Reply: If you did more research that anyone you know, answering the last question should be easy.
Also, I'm not a 100% e-collar person, so please share with us your other methods for solving the problem and how they would have changed the outcome.

Magic writes:If you could curb your own agression, I may teach them to you..

Reply: You must be very sensitive about aggression. I only attacked your statements about "e-collar trauma" and like myths that you were pushing on people who might not have much or any experience with them. I did not attack you, or flame you, just disagree with statements that are IMO not realistic. Your "trauma" was no more than either poor handling, or poor training, if you find that offensive, sorry if the truth hurts. I don't think many here will agree that letting your dog run off, off lead, and attack another dog, while you a "professional" trainer had no control over the dog is anything other than what I stated.

Heather,
I'm not an expert on e-collar training (or dog training, for that matter), but I will venture to say that if I were in your shoes, I would look at the presence of children as a "distraction". In other words, you need to work your dog in obedience under distraction. She should learn that she is to listen to you, no matter what else is going on. That takes time and a lot of patience. I don't know the proper procedures for doing this with an e-collar, but I do know how I would handle it without one. I would work on desensitization and counterconditioning. That means, you both desensitize her to the presence of children, and condition her to behave differently from how she behaves now, when there are kids around.

For example, my mixed breed bitch has on-leash aggression issues toward other dogs. I've tried a number of approaches, not including an ecollar. What I am currently doing now, is I take her on lead to a place on a running path, where there are some houses that are adjacent to the path. There is one fenced yard that contains three dogs that come running and snarling whenever I pass with one of my dogs. I walk my dog as close to the yard as I can until I see a reaction from her. The first reaction that I see is a change in posture. When I see this change, I stop right there and work her in obedience, rewarding her heavily for compliance. I gradually move us closer, all the while working obedience (sit, down, loose lead walking, etc.) and rewarding her tons for focusing on me. The moment she can no longer focus on me, but begins to pay attention to the other dogs, I back up until she can focus on me again. Over time, in theory, I should be able to gradually decrease the distance, as my dog becomes more desensitized to the presence of the other dogs, and more conditioned to focusing on me despite the presence of other dogs.

Does that make sense? I think the ecollar training works in a similar way. You're not trying to punish a behavior, but rather, are teaching her a different way to react.