Our trainer brought us a Dogtra Sport 60 today. I am using it on two different dogs for two diffeent reasons.

For the hound/shep it is for the property were he is very territorial and aggressive

For the chow/lab it is for walks etc, he is aggressive on our walks and even with my husband at over 6 feet and 225 lbs he couldn't get the dog to stop trying to go after another dog, with very stern prong corrections. If he had corrected anymore the dog would have been off the ground.

So I had the collar on him tonight and was using to correct. At a 1/2 1 or 2 he didn't even respond. At a 3 level he did. When a loose dog came at us, I put it on 4 and he tried to keep on going. Then went to the 5 and it stopped him in his tracks. Is it normal to have to go to a 5 the first time. He howled, etc and seemed agitated for the next 2 or 3 minutes after the correction.
Does this seem right??? I would have thought I should have been able to get a response on a lower setting.

Similar problem with bark/collar had to go to the next to highest setting for effectiveness on the chow/lab and even then he will bark through it, if their is a cat.

I can call the trainer, but thought I would ask here first.

Thanks

Linda,

Here is a link to some advice from Lou Castle. The program is what he swears by.

Crittering Thread

It also works for dogs, cats, and anything else you can get for "bait".

Linda Wayrynen wrote: Our trainer brought us a Dogtra Sport 60 today.

LC: You’ve mixed two brands together. You got a TriTronics Sport 60. Dogtra is a different brand. I’m not fond of that Ecollar for training for the reason that you’ve discovered. One level is too low and the next is too high. I prefer something that offers more levels.

Linda Wayrynen wrote: So I had the collar on him tonight and was using to correct. At a 1/2 1 or 2 he didn't even respond. At a 3 level he did. When a loose dog came at us, I put it on 4 and he tried to keep on going. Then went to the 5 and it stopped him in his tracks. Is it normal to have to go to a 5 the first time. He howled, etc and seemed agitated for the next 2 or 3 minutes after the correction.

Linda Wayrynen wrote: Does this seem right??? I would have thought I should have been able to get a response on a lower setting.

LC: if this is what your trainer told you to do, stop going to him, at least for Ecollar work. He not only doesn’t understand the tool, he’s guiding you into trouble.

LC: When used in this fashion, for punishment, the dog is very likely to think that the object of his “affection” is causing the pain. What’s the best way to make that stop? KILL the other animal! That’s not going to decrease his interest in the other dog, quite the opposite.

LC: What can happen is that the dog will learn to shut off the display, the lunging and growling, that tells you that he’s “interested” in the other dog. He’ll suppress it until he knows that he can get close enough to that dog to engage him. You’ll get a dog that goes from “calm” to “murder” with no warning. It hasn’t stopped the aggression. It’s only stopped the display of aggression.

LC: Richard thanks for referring Linda to my article. One big difference in what I recommend and what her trainer recommended is that my technique uses the lowest level of stim that the dog can feel. That doesn’t hurt, it’s just uncomfortable. It doesn’t make the dog want to kill the other dog.

LC: Additionally my training teaches the dog that he can make the discomfort stop and guides him into the behavior that will allow it. The dog quickly learns that “the look” brings discomfort and looking away brings comfort again. Since the aggression is shut off so early and it’s done at the discomfort, rather than the pain level, it just goes away. I can’t guarantee that your dog will romp and play with dogs he was formerly aggressive with but, when it’s been done properly, there haven’t been any reoccurrences of aggression.

Linda Wayrynen wrote: Similar problem with bark/collar had to go to the next to highest setting for effectiveness on the chow/lab and even then he will bark through it, if their is a cat.

LC: With some dogs you can’t go high enough to stop them if they’re driven to bark. But if you use my protocol with a cat, it does.

Lou Castle wrote

You have a TriTronics sport 60 (you are correct) that is what he gave us to use

Linda Wayrynen wrote: Does this seem right??? I would have thought I should have been able to get a response on a lower setting.

LC: if this is what your trainer told you to do, stop going to him, at least for Ecollar work. He not only doesn’t understand the tool, he’s guiding you into trouble.

Can you clarify the what you mean about trainer not understanding the tool. He is highly recommended, and I know he has used the tool before. So is it possible, I did it wrong.

His instructions were:

If the dog starts to focus (and when he is focusing) use the E collar for unwanted behavior.
I started at the low settings he kept on going (with choke on he is pulling me over to the other dog) I raised to 3, then 4, then 5 at 5 is when he stopped

The dog had the collar on this am, I put it on 2 or 3 on a 1/2 to 5 setting range, he tends to growl and start snarling at a particular early morning walker.
He started to focus on her and I hit the button with a no, he didn't yelp or anything, but immediately looked away and continued with his heel. This seems more appropriate.

So if you could clarify about trainer. If necessary I can see him this week with me using the e collar to make sure I didn't miss something.

Thanks for all your help

I have not used it on the shep/hound yet. Will put it on tonight when we are on our deck. (his problem area) territorial aggression.

He is a much more sensitive so I will start off with a lower setting. But, my thoughts are if the postal worker or paperboy came (his triggers) I would need a high setting to get through his "rage"

I will read article suggested and go from there.

From your description of what he has you doing, he's got you using the Ecollar in a punishment mode. You see the undesirable behavior and press the button, giving him a stim. There's no direction, there's no command, there's no guiding him into another behavior. There's only punishment.

While this may work it's just as likely that he'll make another association, than that he's doing something wrong, with the pain that he's feeling. It's just as likely that he'll attribute the pain to the other animal. If he does that, then it will make the problem worse, not better.

If this is what your trainer has you doing he's just substituting the Ecollar for the leash. But the problem is, that with the leash, the dog knows it's you giving the correction. With the Ecollar he doesn't know where it came from and so he can associate it with anything. Since he's looking at something when the pain hits, he's most likely going to associate the pain he's getting with what he's looking at.

Since he’s advised you on this course, I suggested that you seek help elsewhere. There are better ways to use the tool. The path he’s taking you down can make the problem worse, not better and is one reason that Ecollars have gotten a bad name. You’re already at the top level of the Ecollar and just barely stopping your dog.

Instead of just hitting the button when he starts aggressing I’d suggest that you use my crittering protocol that Richard sent you to, to direct him into another behavior.

Lou Castle wrote
But the problem is, that with the leash, the dog knows it's you giving the correction

Maybe it is my posting style, but I am saying NO as I give the correction, so isn't the dog associating the correction with me (as he does with the prong collar)

The reason for the E is that even with the prong and my husband giving a correction, on certain things this dog will ignore. So he wins.

Also, I found that I used the collar incorrectly (spoke to trainer today)I had the stimulator button pressed when I changed the setting and the collar will not acknowledge the setting with stimulator button pressed down. (I am sure you know this but just clarifying.)

Therefore the dog would have probably responded at a lower setting but due to my inexperience/timing I went from a low setting to a high setting and that in most likelihood was not necessary.

So if I am using the No command with the E collar rather than a No command with the prong, and redirecting are you saying the dog does not associate the correction with me

I also read the information on crittering. The dogs are family pets. I don't know of anyone that would let me use their cat as bait.

So with this additional information do you feel the E collar is being used properly.

If there is a better way than the prong or E collar please let me know Our goal is to stop all aggressive behavior in its tracks, specifically the growling, snarling and barking at people on our walks.

Ok, in my experience, the e collar used in the way Lou described is the best way to stop aggression.
To find a cat, take your dog to the local pet store in town, there should be a few in the window, poor things but they are behind glass...
Srart across the street...
Your trainer's method has failed for one of 2 reasons.
1. Your dogs do not respect you as their leader and so corrections to them from either you or your husband are confusing and meaningless.
2. Your corrections are meaningless because you have not given the dog's an appropriate out to avoid getting corrected.

Here is an example, fake.
Ever morning I wake up and go out for a jog. When I come back into the house, occassionally my husband pinches me in the arm, but he sometimes misses and I don't get pinched.
I am confused, why is he pinching me, and I am also taking a risk but I want to come in so I risk it every time because since i want to come in and there is a chance I'll make it in with out getting pinched, I go. The way you are training the dogs to turn off aggression is like my husband pinching me (I am not even married btw). I am doing something I have always done and now getting punished for it, why I don't know.
Now, lets assume in a very make believe world I would ever let a man have control over my actions.
Suppose one day I walked in the house with the newspaper in my hand because my husband mentioned to me to bring it in. That day, I didn't get pinched. Then every day for a week after that, he asked me to bring in the newspaper and I didn't get pinched once that week.
Guess what, I will bring in the newspaper every day for the rest of my married life to avoid the pinch. Here I have been taught a way to avoid getting pinched.
Using the e collar in the way Lou descibes conditions the dog in a similar way and teaches the dog an alternative to being aggressive is looking away or obeying a command if you have that level of control. Proper use of the e collar should NOT involve pain, and the teaching should be done at the lowest stim the dog can feel. If your dog is jumping and yelping and taking minutes to recover - its way too high. You should maybe see him shake his head or squint his eyes. If you don't know how to use the collar, you should not try until your trainer goes through the motions with you.
If you teach the dog the corrections are coming from you, then you will never fix your aggression problems at the source because you will always have to be present to control the dog AND what if the dog isn't wearing the collar - you will not have conditioned the dog to turn off the aggression at the sight of the agitation source, NOR will you be able to properly correct the dog at a level that will have meaning for him, and so you will have completely UNDONE all the training in one shot.
There are no other options to controlling aggression than to
1. Be so dominant to your dogs that they are more afraid of you than they want to aggress (and this is hard to accomplish in older dogs with bite history)
2. Condition the dog to turn off the aggression with the e collar, the idea being the DOG learns how to control the collar.
Michelle

Linda Wayrynen wrote: but I am saying NO as I give the correction, so isn't the dog associating the correction with me (as he does with the prong collar)

LC: Probably not. This takes more than a few stims before the dog makes the association between you giving a command the stim.

Linda Wayrynen wrote: Also, I found that I used the collar incorrectly (spoke to trainer today)I had the stimulator button pressed when I changed the setting and the collar will not acknowledge the setting with stimulator button pressed down. (I am sure you know this but just clarifying.)

LC: Yep the collar will keep on transmitting at the level you were at before you changed the dial. But since the dog yelped and the distraction increased, I’ll have to say that at some point you got off the button and it reset, at the new level. If you’d just kept it at the same level he wouldn’t have felt it. Especially since the distraction increased as he approached the other dog.

Linda Wayrynen wrote: So if I am using the No command with the E collar rather than a No command with the prong, and redirecting are you saying the dog does not associate the correction with me

LC: Probably not. At least not at this early stage of the training. It takes many stims coupled with commands before the dog makes that association. Until then, he doesn’t have any idea of where the stim is coming from.

Linda Wayrynen wrote: I also read the information on crittering. The dogs are family pets. I don't know of anyone that would let me use their cat as bait.

LC: There are many ways to get cats for this training. Many people WILL lend you their cat if they know that it may save that cat’s life because your dog will no longer chase him. I know people that have gone to the pound, adopted a cat, done the training and then returned the cat to the pound.

Linda Wayrynen wrote: So with this additional information do you feel the E collar is being used properly.

LC: Nope. It’s still being used strictly in a punishment mode. AND the dog still is likely to think that it’s the other dog that’s causing the pain.

Lou and Michelle thanks for information.

I will follow your suggestions, do more reading and speak to my trainer about your comments. I am new at this and I respect your advice.
As far as the cat, I will try Michelle's idea. I wouldn't go to the pound, adopt a cat, then return after training. That goes against my beliefs that if you adopt a pet, you intend to keep it.
Hence, why I still have the dogs and working on their aggressiveness.

With the constant discipline and the consistent discipline the dogs are improving every day.
For most (most is the operative word) the dogs respond to a Sharp NO, (no prong or ecollar).

I do believe that we are well on our way to establishing our Alpha position, and our dogs respect.

For the triggers that set them off, we work every day on this problem.

Thanks again for your advice and suggestions, they help me become a better dog owner.

Linda

Spoke to my trainer, told him my concerns. I have gotten the training manual from Tritronics and read through, and discussed options with trainer.

Will let you know if a few weeks how things are going with the E collar. So far it has been very successful on the hound/shep on a very low setting.