Hello all. Been reading and reading and have been anxious to make the switch to raw for our pup. I think we are started off in the right direction, please correct me if I'm wrong. From everything I've read there seems to be quite a bit of knowledge on here about raw and the switch to it. One big thing that keeps popping up is that a growing puppy diet is more crucial than an adult and to be sure to post to get guidance and what steps to progress in. I have never fed a growing puppy like this so all help, criticism, and thoughts are more than welcome!

He is just under 60lbs right now and just under 5 months old. Was on kibble, vit e, and salmon oil until this past weekend. Discontinued the oils, skipped a meal and began feeding chicken backs and necks. We pulled all of the skin we could off and let the meals get closer to room temp before feeding (not exactly, but not straight from the fridge). I read 6-10% for growing puppies so we started with just about 7% of his weight as we didn't want to over feed and cause any issues. We split it up into two meals. One in the morning and one in tHe evening.

Going off of a fhe threads I have read on here we are also giving the digestzyme capsule in the morning and the detox drops before bed.
One of the questions I have is should he be taking probiotics as well? I also see some people giving yogurt as well...

So first meal.....absolutely loves it!!! Took forever to actually eat it...licked it and licked it then chewed on each back for a solid 10 minutes each....just chewed and chewed and chewed!!
First poop about 4 hours later= soft log followed by a big clump of yellow/tan "jello" substance
Fed 2nd meal and then next poop was watery yellowish bile looking diarrhea.
Next morning soft brown log
Morning Meal then 4-5 hours later we had light brown hard solid poop "balls".

It's been the same for the rest of the meals (skin-removed chicken backs and necks) and solid hard poop "balls" for lack of better term, lol.

We started on Sunday and its now 4 full days on the backs and necks..

Couple of questions.

Does the poop consistency sound accurate? First couple maybe a detox or cleansing type movement?

Is there anything we are doing wrong or should change?

How soon should we start leaving the skin on?

At what point do we introduce muscle meat (Type of chicken as to get him going on a full balanced diet before we introduce another type of meat, correct?).

Would just boneless breast or leg meat do or gizzards possibly?

Is the kidney meat on the backs enough organ meat for the time being?

We were planning on waiting to add the oils back in until we have a variety of meats he is okay with so we don't cause any upset and know he is accepting the basic balanced diet then add the oils little by little.

Then obviously any new meats or parts we add would be done gradually also.
What is the preferred timeline for gradually adding a component...a week....few days or?

We have a list of things we've read and learned to ise as guidelines and were planning on moving forward every 3-4 days depending on how he digests judging by what it looks like coming out the other end.


I think that's it for now. Again any help, tips, or criticism will be greatly appreciated to get us on the right track! Thanks!

Hi, and welcome:

MHO:

Don't add anything new (except the muscle meat discussed below) until you have firm log poops.

Don't go by a timeline, but by the poops. (Lots of additions are fine right off, next poop is great, ready for the next thing.)

(That diarrhea at first was probably because you started with full-size meals right off. No harm, since the diarrhea did not stick around.)



For right now, you still have ball poops, correct? Hard balls? And it has been four days total?

If I am stating that correctly, then this tells you too much bone (no surprise with all backs and necks, and you would expect to be adding muscle meat after a couple of days on backs anyway; you would have skipped the diarrhea by starting with smaller meals, probably).

Please tell us approximately what weight of food you are giving for his 60 pounds, and we can more easily tell you how much of the backs and necks to replace with muscle meat.


BTW, have you considered THK with backs added in as a bridge to raw? That gives you a lot of insurance. (That too, I start with a half-size meal until I see the poop.)

PS

We have some very experienced puppy-on-raw folks here, including Anne and Tracy and Michael. One or more of them will chime in, I'm sure.

I've raised a pup on raw and have switched 3 adult dogs over at one point or another, plus helped to switch over another 2 family dogs. With my pup, I started him on chicken thighs...they have a great bone to meat ratio with bone being approximately 10-15% of the total amount of meat. I stick with a ration of 70-80% meat, 10-20% bone, 10% organ...balanced over time.

To answer your questions...

Connie is right on...backs and necks are almost entirely bone...time to add in the muscle meat. Boneless/skinless chicken breast, boneless thighs, gizzards, heart (small amounts) would be great additions. All are considered muscle meat (even the gizzards and hearts, which function as muscles).

I actually still remove most of the skin, but that's my personal preference. Skin tends to cause gas in two of my dogs.

Don't worry yet about organs - get the muscle meat in there and watch stools. Once you get good stools, add in some chicken livers.

Once everything is looking good with chicken meat/bone/organ, I start add in additional variety. Usually move on to turkey, then beef...over more time, I add some pork, lamb and duck. Personally, this processes of adding meats has always gone pretty fast, but I've not had any problems with making the switch.

I haven't had to use digestive enzymes and I only really use probiotics if giving antibiotics (with the exception of my GSD who had GI issues throughout her life - she got both, always). I've never had a dog that had a noticeable detox in terms of negatives...always just straight improvement.

I have raised 3 pups on raw...but they have all come from raw fed mothers ....& weaned onto raw....so I never had to transition one over from kibble to raw.

I also used a combination of Bravo(frozen premade raw) & homemade raw diet to feed my pups. I wanted to be sure that the pups were getting 100% of what they needed. I don't take any chances when feeding pups...I want proper bone growth. I have also used THK (ALS ones) when traveling with dogs & pups as a stand alone or with RMB add ins.

I would have no problem switching an older dog over to raw on a total homemade diet...but I just don't take any chances with pups.

My five were all fed raw from puppyhood, without benefit of THK--but it's a fine product and you can use it if you want to. But it is not necessary. I have also never used digestive enzymes, but have no problem with others using them if they need/want to.

Yes, puppy nutrition is important. But assuming you add in new items only as you see normal poops, and there are no "issues" (I never had a single soft poop ever)--you should be ramped up to full variety, including RMB, muscle meat, organs, oil/E within a week or two at most.

What breed is this dog? I much prefer to base meal sizes on an ideal expected adult weight. Can you estimate (from breed standard, or knowing the dam/sire) how big your dog will be?

If you know that number, then feeding 2-3% of that weight in raw food a day is the ballpark. Regardless of the pup's age or current weight.

Sounds like you are starting off well. If you have firm poops, add something new: muscle meat, then organs, then fish oil, then e, then any small amount of veg/carb if you want to feed those. Then start rotating in variety of proteins. Chicken first, then some red meat. Then keep offering as much protein variety as you can find and afford.

Variety, IMO, is key. But this means variety over time--not all at once, or all in the same meal.

Thank you for the replies! Guess is didnt think about starting off with a small meal at first... Figured 7% was low on the range scale with 10 being the recommended high. thats why im here...to learn and learn some more. How small do you normally start off with? So the diarrhea was from in fact "over feeding"? Dang it. Thought we were doing right by splitting it up with one part of chicken. I definitely don't want to harm him and want to make sure we do everything possible to ensure proper growth and bone development. Definitely don't want him growing to fast either.

He is a Cane Corso. Should be 125-130lbs when he is done growing give or take. The 7% we started with roughly 4 lbs....so 2 in the am and 2 in the pm.

When I add muscle it is best to stick with one part for the beginning correct? So if we start with gizzards stick to that...if we start with breast stick to that correct? Until he has fully made the transition, then we can start adding different types of muscle.

How may poops so you like to see firm log before you add something else to the equation? Couple days worth?
Oh and yes 4 days, still all poops although tonites was a bit softer than previously.

I actually shyed away from the thighs because I always read that the backs and necks are so much softer bones. The down side obviously is they are mostly bone I guess.

As far as THK or Bravo, I hadn't really thought about it to much. I just looked up the THK and sounds fairly simple...just add RMB's and water? Sounds like a box lasts quite a while also. That woupld even be great later on for camping, etc. Which style is best for my situation?

I don't want to take chances either. So if the consensus is start with THK, then I would be wiling to go that route.

I have a few books I've been reading as well. Doesn't make it sound to difficult.....but that's the diff I guess between a book and real people. Use the book as a guideline and you guys/gals to fine tune it

As far as the digestive enzymes I was giving them in hopes of avoiding issues. Preventative maintenance in a sense.
I appreciate the help.

Another question I thought of is regarding training treats. While making the switch to raw do you back off of treats so you don't take the chance them having a reaction with the raw and causing upset stomach, loose stools etc ? At least until we have fully made the switch.

Thanks!

I'll take a few: I prefer backs for beginner RMBs too. Some dogs don't do so well starting with weigh-bearing bones.

What are the training treats? I don't back off the tiny training treats when I'm switching a dog. Heck, that is usually right when the dog came, and we're doing lots of fun marker stuff. What are you using?

"I just looked up the THK and sounds fairly simple...just add RMB's and water? "
Are you following other threads running concurrently with this one? (There one on switching using THK running right now: http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=33295#376228 )

"Oh and yes 4 days, still all poops although tonites was a bit softer than previously." But are they forming logs? Or still hard balls?

"When I add muscle it is best to stick with one part for the beginning correct? So if we start with gizzards stick to that...if we start with breast stick to that correct? Until he has fully made the transition, then we can start adding different types of muscle. "

That depends. Add some, look at the poop, and consider it good if you have logs.

"I have a few books I've been reading as well. Doesn't make it sound to difficult." It's not, once you get started. Which books? There are a few really bad ones, but also several very good ones.

"He is a Cane Corso. Should be 125-130lbs when he is done growing give or take. "
I took 2.5% of 125 and got about 3 pounds. Or 3% of 130 is almost 4 pounds. So maybe Tracy and others better chime in.