Hi every one

im just starting in the protection sports and I have been trying to read and watch as much as it has been possible so far, I still have years of work to master this but to start I thought that the first thing to do was to check on breeds to see which kind is the most suitable for me.

so I have been reading posts about off breeds in the schutz hund and also post of people arguing why there is no place for off breads in protection sports etc.

and it makes me wonder, what makes a particular breed good or not for the sport? I have a few ideas coming to my mind and I would like to express that to see if some of you can help me understand this matter.


particularly I would like to ask, what do you think of the bandoge cross type of dogs?

I always hear about gsd and malinolis to be the best dogs for protection but I ask myself why is that?, i do understand dogs need to have a specific type or character and abilities, is like ok even if your english bulldog could remotely have the drive and attitude to protect, fiscally would be impossible for him to run and catch someone or to jump over a fence to protect you etc, just as an example im not really talking about english bulldogs but the limitations that a particular breed poses respect to physical and mental abilities.

I think gsd and malinolis where not created in the very beginning to do schutzhund, i guess they showed some capabilities that made people wonder why we don't do this or that with this dogs right?

I even hear often that a gsd is not always the best dog because you need a working line etc
so why is that no other breeds are 100 percent capable of doing protection?

is that because no one tries to step out of the box? and instead they go for what has shown some success? or is it really about the breed? i mean is it possible that people are not looking to other breeds to see what they have and how to train those breeds for the sport?

maybe an offbread may have the talent but people is not willing to do selective breeding on those offbreads to get a working line for protection, like the gsd just because is a gsd doesnt mean he can do the work because you need a working and not a show line, if that happens in one of the most common breeds for the sports can the other statement be true as well? offbreads can do the work if we selectively choose individuals and breed them for that?

and this takes me to the topic what do you think of the bandog crossings?

I have seen, read about and watch what some people are trying to do with those crosses, like breeders like tornabene or manson family bandogs

and it seems that the goal they have is to create a new breed specifically for protection
and i want to know what people think about that

I can understand why they cross different breeds to get hopefully the result they want
for example to mix a american pitbull terrier with a presa canario or a napolitan mastiff

so they try to selectively get the willing and strength to die fighting pitbulls have prove in the pits, which is a horrible sport but may be required if a real treat appears and the dog need to fight to death to protect you(no one is saying we need to fight dogs on pits any more just saying that we can use that gene to fight if needed), you get the temper of a dog that wont stop fighting, a dog that also is very smart and loyal and really strong, excelling in weight pulling and a great family pet all around when trained and socialized correctly BUT is often a dog too friendly with strangers, that makes him not a dog that naturally would protect the house but i have read somewhere in this website Ed Frawly saying that is a myth that pits cant do protection because he has seem them but you need to teach the dog to do that.

so they add a more natural guard dog like a pressa canario to the mix so hopefully they get the best of the pit with the protection capabilities that comes natural to a presa(or another natural guard dog) and also that cross adds a bit of size to the pit so he has more stop power and the presa gets a bit lighter so he has more the endurance of a pit to be able to jogg or run with you for longer distances if necessary.

or to mix a napolitan mastiff with pit for the same purpose to add ancient dog gladiator genes to the pit(because the fight genes of pits may be more towards other dogs but napolitans where used against people) we are talking about dogs that in the beginning and some lines may keep those genes if people dont mess around and convert them to show dogs, dogs that where fighting in Rome and killing people and marching with the Romans to war, dogs pretty capable to exterminate a treat if necessary and got the nerve to do that, ( i heard cane corsos still are pretty capable of course not the show lines developed recently but the old ones)

is not that what lots of people complain about choosing a dog for shutzhund? that it is difficult to find even in the regular breeds suited for the sport a dog with those nerves?

if so why not to mix these breeds to selectively create a specific dog for modern protection?

is not easy and probably would take many many years but would that be the way to go if we want to have dogs that will react in real situations?

I guess if we dont have that right now we may work for it again this are just thoughts that comes to my mind, I dont have the answer and i dont think i have the true at all, im just asking what do you think about the topic.

there are hundredths of dogs that may be mix to get the right type of breed for this.

we can talk about how people mixed breeds to get the modern dogo argentino for example they where looking for something specific which was not available at the time and they nail it they just got what they wanted, why we dont do the same?.

we can forget about discussions about off and on breeds and concentrate to create the ultimate guard dog, maybe .

im sure people will say such crosses will be difficult to control and to dangerous etc. but if something is true is that dogs are not just killers just because, no matter the breed, people makes them that way, others just have bad tempers just like people even in the regular breeds you find a dog too aggressive ,dominant etc and people agree a dog that you can not control shouldnt be used to breed a new generation so would be the same with this new breeds just selectively use the best characters for the task

and also we should think if we really want a dog capable of killing and guard you in a real situation or if we just want a dog that show some skills as sport but in reality would not pull the trigger so at the ned of the day is like having a plastic gun to display but when the time come to use it you would only be able to throw it to the face of the attacker and run because is of no use, what im saying is do we really want to create dogs that will pull the trigger if needed?

long post only for hardcore readers i hope i can find some and hear back from them to see what people think about it.

again im not sure what would happen with these people in the bandog thingy but i have seem some videos and those dogs looks ferocious well trained and capable to me(again im not an expert) will see what happens.

a few links of the dogs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYRNltLrBFg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQYGrTS9XKA
etc just check their channels and web sites is prety easy to see lots of videos so you can judge better.

I didn't read the entire post because I don't have time right now but my take on breeds and training:

A physically agile dog with a high prey drive that has decent nerves can probably be trained (in prey) to do protection sports. As long as the dog likes to tug, it can be taught to bite a sleeve. I don't think it would impossible to be able to train a high drive Labrador for example (if it has a hard enough mouth). But of you want defense then there is a lot more required.

There's an awesome video somewhere of a JRT doing bite work...other than the size, a JRT is probably well suited to the sport LOL. Those little truckers have defense too.

Now with Bandogs and other guardian breeds like Caucasians and the such....one problem you will run into is that MOST people into protection are going to be well versed in training dogs within the temperament range of GSDs, Mals, Dobes and Rottweilers. So in being UNFAMILIAR with the general drives, triggers, thresholds, and quirks of the Bandogs and other breeds, they will be sometimes skeptical, cautious, maybe closed minded...but for good reason. When this type of training is done wrong you can end up with a very dangerous animal.

It all boils down to adjusting your training methods for the dog, selecting a sound temperament to start of course, really knowing your individual dog's thresholds and being very proactive about making it clear to any people assisting in such training understand in what ways they may need to do things differently.

I don't claim to be an expert on the flock guardian breeds but I can imagine that some of them don't have a high prey drive at all but very high in defense, so protection would have to be done in defense which can bring up all kinds of issues. Typically, protection work is founded in prey to help assure the dog can be properly controlled and it takes down the stress, the dog starts in defense with a solid foundational skills already learned in prey and this can be touched base with by going back to working in prey as needed. Most banddogs have high prey drive I believe so that should not be a problem.

Other than that, they tend to be very strong dogs physically as is the Rottweiler. So you need to be fit enough to effectively handle the dog when its all fired up pulling on the lead and take full responsibility for the life of the animal.

I stopped here.
"I think gsd and malinolis where not created in the very beginning to do schutzhund,"

Schutzhund was designed to be a breed test for the GSD. It was shaped to what that specific dog breed should be able to do.

Banndogs completely aside, any "off" breed may be able to produce a representative specimen that can do the work. It's an 'off' breed because they are not REGULARLY able to do the work. It doesn't mean you can't trial with them, but if you're aiming for the national/international level of sport, you go with a breed that is capable of having a large percentage of individuals able to trial, so that you have a large pool of individuals to choose from and a better chance of getting a top competitor. If your goal is just to participate and learn, then you find a dog with the drives you want and you ignore the bloodlines.

If you give a Honda Civic a cold air intake, a large bore exhaust and a nitrous system, it may give a Corvette a run for its money at a stop light race.. that doesn't mean the Civic in the parking lot at the house next door can win the Indy 500.

I read the rest of it.
A guard dog, is not a protection dog, is not a sport dog. So what is it that you want this dog breed to do?

If there was any one dog breed that could do EVERYTHING that people wanted, we would never have bred out to hundreds of subtypes.

Hi thanks for the reply it is very informative and is what i was expecting to hear
you are right about the prey drives and Iove the way you put it, I agree to breed a new type of dog for protection would require a new kind of handler and decoy as well right?

that makes tons of sense i guess if the guys at bandoge kennels are breeding these dogs they should also learn and train people to manage these breeds(as decoys and handlers) that is amazing info thanks a lot!!!

Hi Kristin yeah thats exactly my question whats the difference between guar dogs, protection dogs and sport dogs? its really not clear for me, why for example a presa canario which is a guar dog(as far as I know) would not be good in schutzhund or personal protection, what makes the difference? I found some valuable info thanks to the other post, fight drive vs pray drive and all that .

and I made the post because no matter where I read there is someone complaining about all dogs, doesn't matter the breed I have read that gsd are not what used to or that you need to import from germany to get a decent working line or that dovies are now coach potatoes even if they where originally created to protect

and list goes on so I was like ok if everybody is complaining about all this issues, why not to breed a dog that would perform as everybody wants? using the breeds available to mix and get what people want just like people did with the dogo argentino

thats what this post is all about

me personally im looking for a dog that would protect me and keep my family safe, i dont care much for any sport title, i just look into it because the exercises are very close to a real situation so to speak, because again with that I heard things like ok your dog performs well in schutzhund doesnt mean he will actually protect you in a real situation.

Im trying to find the best dog that would actually protect my daughter if needed and also the right training if schutzhund is not the answer then what is the right direction?

some bite sports should translate to this real situations right?

thanks again for your post.

The IPO (SchH) club that I am in has had Pit Bulls, Cane Corsos, Boerboels, and Rotts. We also evaluated a Giant Schnauzer, and I have a friend who is titling a Doberman. There are entire federations that were created with the mission of giving all working breeds even footing at trial. I feel it is inaccurate to generalize that clubs do not want to train off-breeds.

Many organizations and clubs are breed specific, and strive to preserve their breed-of-choice according to standards they set themselves. USCA, one of the pioneer IPO orgs in the US, is a GSD club. They accept all working dogs that have a certified scorebook at their trials, but their stated focus is on the GSD and even have a breed survey for preservation of the breed. Without breed wardens to protect specific breeds, all of the breeds that you mentioned would have been diluted, and by now would not be able to display the characteristics favored for your proposed mixings.

My experience, albeit slight indeed, is that the off-breeds are, with some exceptions, not able to compete at the same level as the well-bred working line GSDs and Mals. When the Mals entered the IPO realm, they changed it because many are sometimes better in competition than their GSD counterparts. That is not to say that any dog cannot succeed at the biting sports, but the sports are mostly suited and shaped to test specific characteristics within the familiar protection working breeds. These are much the same reasons why Border Collies have taken over the agility sports.

I have also noticed a trend within the confines of our little club. A few of the newcomers who grew to love the sport and training have switched to GSDs. Once the bug bites them and they become experienced, they get the itch for a better IPO dog and end up buying a GSD pup. This goes for even the most enthusiastic of Cane and PB enthusiasts.

Most dog breeds were created for very specific reasons, and that is why a guard dog is different from a personal protection dog and a sport dog. There are some fundamental differences between training a dog for Schutzhund and for personal protection. OTOH, the large guardian breeds will protect a flock from natural, selectively-bred instinct, with training done by the pack itself.

A dog that can excel in sport competition may not necessarily be hard enough to actually fight a human if the human gets the upper hand. Dogs that guard property may not have the prey drive necessary to control their aggression if confronted directly, which is key for sport. My own dog is a guard dog. She has extreme barrier aggression and a very low defensive threshold. Both are obstacles to overcome when trying to instill the discipline necessary for competition.

Hi Duane
yeah im not really going to argue at all about Schutzhund I mean its prety clear to me that if you want to excel in a sport developed for GSD`s you would need a well breed GSd from a working line but thanks for the info it helps me to understand the sport.

what im trying to do is to select my next dog, i want to make an educated choice base on information about different dog breeds.

as i said before Im not looking to win any bite sport titles, i do want a protection dog that can protect my home and family if something happens.

im trying to figure it out what should i look for to get the new dog, and I have tried to speak to many breeders as i have been able too just to find out

for example I do own an american pitbull, when I got it I was looking for a dog that could do exercise with me, a dog I could do tons of things like weight pulling, jogging, trekking etc
and also a nice family member and i got it, he is all that but I started to be more and more concern about security
the world is getting nuts lol

so I know have an amazing dog that do tons of stuff with me but it is true pits are way too friendly with strangers, he look all bad ass and he is just a big puppy that wont bite people just because which is good in a way(maybe to have a dog that wont bite unless you tell him despite whats going on around him may be a good think , i dont want a gun firing itself, i want to be able to pull the trigger, only a human may know when to do that right?), I read an article form Ed Frawley saying they(pits) can learn to protect you need to put some effort but you can do it, they have tons of food and pray drive so that helps on the training alot

but I do know my dog would protect me from another dog, I have experience that where we go out to run in the mornings there are lots of street dogs no one cares about and sometimes they try to attack me and my dog always make them run away

but i dont think same will happen with other people, i will start training him in protection to have fun and to see how much he can do, but im not expecting much since is not a natural protection breed.

so as i didnt selected him first to do protection now that im more concern about safety due that my daughter was just born

I now want a dog that will keep an aye on my family when im not home.

Im talking real situations not any sport

that´s why im asking people to find out what makes a good personal protection dog.

"i will start training him in protection to have fun and to see how much he can do, but im not expecting much since is not a natural protection breed.

so as i didnt selected him first to do protection now that im more concern about safety due that my daughter was just born

I now want a dog that will keep an aye on my family when im not home."




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